Trigger warning: holy shit, this pisses me off.
So two of the boys involved in the Steubenville “rape” case were found guilty and will now face imprisonment and a lifetime membership on the Registered List of Sex Offenders. That is a tragedy for the boys, for justice and for the victims of actual rape. As we go through this case, ask yourself who benefits from this verdict, and why.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/17/justice/ohio-steubenville-case/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews
Most of the facts in this case seem relatively incontrovertible: a young woman, who was not part of the regular social group, went to a football party, in a town mad for football, got trashed out of her mind, voluntarily accompanied two of the biggest football stars to another party, passed out and then got treated like a whore.
In a moment of mind-numbing stupidity, the boys opted to film their “assault” on the girl, which involved fingering her while she was passed out. Rather than leave her in a ditch somewhere, they carried her around to different locations, none of which had any adult supervision.
What the fuck, Steubenville? Where are all the goddamn grown-ups?
The law in Ohio states that ANY penetration, however slight, constitutes rape. Let’s start there. Comparing a stupid, drunk, helmet-chasing whore who gets fingered while passed out to an actual rape victim is completely and utterly absurd.
This is rape:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/28/indian-gang-rape-victim-dies-hospital_n_2377717.html
So is this:
And this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_Jogger_case
Comparing those cases, or any of the other truly brutal rapes to what happened in Steubenville is comparing this:
To this
Anyone who stood around moaning that the slight fender bender they got into at the mall is comparable to a fiery, multiple car crash on the interstate would immediately be dismissed as the most self-absorbed narcissist lacking any kind of empathy or perspective. We have a word to describe people like that: we call them assholes.
Now, the girl in Steubenville is claiming she didn’t actually drink all that much, and someone must have drugged her! Toxicology tests? NEGATIVE.
Oh my! You mean she’s a lying little tramp desperately trying to avoid ANY culpability for what happened to her? Well color me shocked.
Defense attorneys say a toxicology report performed a day later showed no signs of drugs.
The most telling thing about this whole case is that multiple people saw the little tramp passed out and carried about by a couple of douchey guys, and make no mistake, those boys behaved shamefully. Part of having the adulation and admiration that comes along with being a small town football star is not to abuse that power when the little gold-digging status whores come a-calling, and those boys failed.
Punishment > Crime
That girl had no friends at the party, not one person had enough respect for her to step in, she was not part of the social tribe and there is no way in hell she did not know that. She went to that party to nab herself a football player, and lo and behold, the football players didn’t really like such an obvious grasp at their glory.
Find yourself another wagon to hitch to, little star.
The saddest thing is that the boys sobbingly admit that they ruined her life! They are accused of having “no moral code”! Oh, and the girl had an impeccable one, did she?
RUINED HER LIFE?!?!
Are you fucking kidding me? They are going to jail! They will be registered sex offenders! They are convicted criminals! One night of behaving like assholes will follow them the rest of their lives, and HER LIFE IS RUINED?
Her life is not ruined in the slightest. LittleTramp is free to go about her life, getting as drunk as she likes, chasing after any high-status males she likes, and securing criminal convictions against men who treat her like the whore she is.
God help the varsity athletes at whatever college campus she ends up on, and no doubt LittleTramp will get back on her feet after suffering a little humiliation and continue on with her life because SHE’S RUINED.
The young men in this case will never escape the disgustingly unfair consequences of a night of acting like dicks, while the young woman will carry on, unless she feels she isn’t getting quite enough sympathy, of course. Cue the Prozac and therapy!
You know what we need? We need a Drunk Whore Registry. If sex offenders are registered for the protection of all women, then why not register drunk whores for the protection of all men? It’s true that men could protect themselves by not acting like dicks, but combine small-town celebrity with lots of alcohol and no adult supervision, and you WILL get men acting like assholes and women acting like sluts.
When we only punish one side on that equation, we have a serious cultural problem. Men are held to account for their irresponsible decisions made while young and stupid and drunk, but women are not? Most crimes acknowledge explicitly that mitigating circumstances create different categories of crime with correspondingly progressive punishments. Why is rape different?
The punishment these boys face, which will be in effect for THE REST OF THEIR LIVES is way out of proportion to the “crime”. The definition of rape in Ohio is so broadly defined that the act of being a dickhead is now as serious as the act of fucking a woman forcibly and against her will. And if you don’t think there is a material difference between getting fingered and getting fucked, you are probably a feminist.
Getting drunk and chasing after football stars demonstrates level of stupidity and disrespect for the humanity of the men in question (who are valued only for their status), and that disrespect was returned. But only the boys are held responsible for that.
I say bullshit. No one got raped in Steubenville. Someone got humiliated, and she participated willingly and readily in her own humiliation. Turning stupid decisions made by high-school students into criminal acts with consequences that will follow only ONE party for their rest of their lives is deeply unfair, and when fingering a slut at an alcohol fuelled party is put in the same category as violent sexual assault, the real victims are drowned in a chorus of pathetic mewlings of women who didn’t get to bag the star.
Who thinks that if the young woman had woken up the next morning next to the football player, his arms wrapped around her in a loving embrace, she would have considered that the price she had to pay to land the big fish?
Steubenville: sour fucking grapes.
Not just sour, bitter, too. But only for the men.
How is that justice? Who is served when those boys are locked up? Who is protected? Who wins? How ironic is it that the adults who were NOT present to lend some sanity to what their own children were up to are now fully involved to make certain only the boys are punished?
People make stupid decisions. Especially when they are young. They act like idiots. They treat other people with a lack of respect. They behave shamefully. It happens. Holding boys, and only boys responsible, moves justice from being blind to being blatantly sexist. When justice can only see one sex as guilty, it’s time to put out her eyes again.
Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.
Lots of love,
JB
judgybitch 
I always tell people there is a reason “dumbjock” is one word. I also know a woman who passed out dead drunk and some dumbjock had sex with her. When she told a nun about it, she was told to “not drink with strange men.”
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I don’t know, Bob. To me, that sounds pretty bad. But again, what are the mitigating factors? Was he drunk, too? What were the circumstances? Fucking dead drunk girls is obviously a really terrible thing to do, but is it as terrible as a violent sexual assault?
There need to be degrees and circumstances should carry some weight.
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Well The boys should not be in that situation, why didn’t their coach teach them how to carry themselves and act off the football field?
Also where are the parents of this girl , why didn’t them teach her to have respect for herself. The society and government will always side with women and i think that is wrong, Men get set up everyday and no one cares, I haven’t heard one politician talk about Men rights ever. That is wrong, Men don’t have rights and no one is speaking up. Women are allow to do anything and get away with it. I cant stress enough that it is not a man’s fault that a woman gets pregnant , It is her body and she should protect her body. Don’t say yes to sex, or don’t put your self in any situation where u will endanger your life.
what was that girl doing at the party? Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:35:17 +0000 To: shameb@msn.com
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Actually, images of that girl will be passed around on the internet forever. Those boys are minors. The whole thing stinks. That girl is hardly a dumb fucking whore, at what,16 years old? for going to a party to talk to a guy she had a crush on.
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The issue with your tone and I am sure many peoples views isn’t so much that she was a fool to go to a party on her own, drink beyond her limit and be taken advantage of.
The fact is, the boys filmed it, spread it around, boasted about it on the internet. In their minds they did nothing wrong and sought to show off their digital trophies, their home made drunk christian girl under age porn.
Like there was nothing wrong with fingering a passed out girl and filming it.
You end with saying that had she woken up next to one of the players all would be well, as in, had she not been dragged around parties…well yeah…
times are a changing.
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I will agree with you that they shouldn’t be getting charged with rape, however they should be getting charged for filming a minor for purpose of distribution sexually explicit material.
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If she didn’t want images of her passed around forever, she shouldn’t have gone to the party without friends and gotten black out trashed. Individuals need to be responsible for their actions. Both the boys AND the girl. Maybe not a whore yet, but certainly on her way.
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People drink before interacting with the other sex all the time. Men drink to inhibit their insecurities and get the courage to approach girls. Women drink to inhibit their insecurities and feel more at ease in social situations, when men come and talk to them. People drink before having sex. So if a woman is completely drunk, becomes flirty with a guy, and then almost passes out, she has to understand he has perfectly valid reasons to believe that is just the interaction she wants: drunk sex. That’s of course different from a girl passing out drunk in her corner, and being taken advantage by some random dude that passes by, but how often does that happen? Also, since she was by her own account completely gone, how can we trust what she said? A contract signed under the influence of alcohol is still valid most of the time, so this whole idea that you can’t consent while drunk is bullshit.
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So, moral of the story- underage boy is stupid, gets drunk, and makes a horrible decision = charged with a crime, hated beyond belief by the majority, and stuck with a label that will follow him forever – not just on the internet to be forgotten, but on job applications, volunteering for kid’s activites in the event he grows up and has a family, etc…..
Underage girl is stupid, gets drunk, and makes a horrible decision = sympathy, tears, respect, justification, pedestal, worship, and some stupid pictures that will eventually go away, and even now are explainable as “evil boys taking advantage of poor old me.”
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Excellent point. If I sign up for a stupid mobile package while drunk, can I use that as an excuse to void the contract?
NO!
It is my responsibility not to sign contracts while drunk.
Think I was pretty drunk at my wedding. So was Mr. JB, as I recall. Hmm….
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Don’t parents tell their kids anymore to stay away from drunken athletes, especially when there is more than one of them? Didn’t anyone tell this girl, “You know, when you pass out dead drunk with a couple of stupid, drunken teenage/college jocks, what do you think is going to happen to you?”
By way, I have drunk with strange women, who have passed out cold. This has been more than once. In every case, I put a pillow under their heads, put a blanket over them, then left. What those boys did is contemptible. The girl they did it to is also contemptible because she had zero common sense. I have no sympathy for any of them.
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Exactly. Everyone involved was just stupid, but the boys will face a lifetime of consequences and she won’t.
Such bullshit.
Everyone in this case was an idiot.
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First off, your comparisons are waaay fuckin off. In India’s case those MEN are up against the fuckin DEATH PENALTY, in Ohio’s case the boys are to serve 1 year (can be held until 21 years of age) in a JUVENILE jail, and register as JUVENILE sex offenders. And I believe theyre being charge for the video. Harsh? Maybe but not down right disgusting or outrageous. If they were being TRIED like those cases you so casually compared them to, that would be different. But they are not.
Hilarious how quick people are to label this girl as a whore, slut/deserving bitch. LOL, she’s 16 years old! In the same way that these BOYS are not being tried as ADULTS. ALL THREE of their lives are ruined not just the boys or hers. ALL OF THEM. That video/images are on the INTERNET, people will remember her for the rest of their lives. How fucking embarrassing is that? She acted like a complete moron and will have to live with it (also) for the rest of her life.
As for her, I firmly believe she should be arrested for underage drinking. We’re hell bent on making an example out of the boys, girls should learn too its not okay to go out (with friends, or WITHOUT friends) and get completely hammered like that without consequence.
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Annulment! Annulment! 😉
The whole point of having strict contract laws, and a very rigid interpretation of clauses is to make sure that people can trust each other after they’ve voiced their decision, so everyone can carry on their business without a constant worry that they’ll be tricked or taken advantage of. And this is exactly what we’re getting these days in a culture of consequence-free binge drinking for women, a destruction of trust. If you constantly feel someone may be trying to take advantage of you, guess what, you’ll want to be the first to take advantage of them! Cue in all the “where have all the good men gone?” complaints…
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Good point, Emma. Why hasn’t she been charged for underage drinking?
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Was it her first rodeo? Oh, forgot we can’t ask questions about a woman’s character.
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She’s not going to have live with anything, except being a hero.
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seriously? If getting fingered while passed out at a party made one a hero, I would Queen of the god damn world!
(kidding)
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I agree with Princess here. Going out with a guy (he appears to have been her age as well), she had a reasonable expectation of not being treated like a whore. Having a crush on somebody is not the same as being a whore, even if they are a football player.
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But she wasn’t going out with him. They had no previously established relationship. She didn’t even go to the same school.
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I agree with that on self-protection grounds, but I can’t see how “has no conscious volition” is compatible with “sexual consent.” Far as I’m concerned, you dip your wick into somebody who’s unconscious, that’d better be one hell of a longterm, seriously-kinky relationship, because otherwise… that’s rape, Bob.
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You’re conflating “relationship status” with “what she was doing that evening.” She had a crush on the guy, she went out with him. Done, end of story. It’s an opinion thing: ymmv and obviously does. But I can’t see “attracted to big strong football player = whore.”
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The photo images and witness testimony indicated that she was unconscious.
The defendants explained that in the photo where they were carrying her by her arms and legs she agreed to the photo and thought it would be funny…but unless they asked her to look like she was passed out (her head was obviously tipped back like a pre-rigamortic corpse) I find this explanation dubious. There’s drunk and flirty (or drunk and nasty, whatever..), and there’s literally passed out. They violated a passed out 16 year old, taped it and put it on the internet.
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Look, I’m all about taking precautions and teaching such, but I’m always bothered by how much focus is on what the victim did. Yes she should have been careful, but that doesn’t negate what those guys did. She did not MAKE them do what they did, they CHOOSE to do that themselves, and they should be held accountable. I’m sure she knows now that she shouldn’t have gotten that drunk, but it’s not her fault that they CHOOSE to rape her.
Also, what exactly makes her a “tramp” or a “whore”….getting drunk and possibly having sex with guys? It annoys me how it’s somehow worse for girls to get drunk than guys. With guys it’s a “boys will be boys” attitude. Getting drunk is not ok no matter what sex you are, but it shouldn’t be see as worse when girls do it. As for the sex part, I don’t support double standards or “differing standards” when it comes to sex, for various reasons.
Third, I don’t think that there should be these comparisons as to what constitutes rape, as if stranger-in-the-bushes and/or brutal rape should be the only type that should be defined as such. I personally don’t feel comfortable saying that a certain type of rape isn’t as bad as such-and-such….Who am I to say how a victim should feel about her attack? Furthermore, yes in law there degrees of assault and murder, but – and correct me if I’m wrong – don’t they have to do with INTENT and not the act itself? If so, rape involves the act itself. I don’t see how you can accidently rape someone, or not mean to do it….
Now with ALL that being said, I myself do wonder about a few things. Like you asked, were the guys drunk also? If EVERYONE was drunk then I can see how this whole thing can go into a gray area. I mean, they say that someone who’s drunk can’t consent to sex, so if that’s the case if both parties are drunk, then what. Then again, it appears the girl was unconscious….
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I don’t dispute the facts, Liz. They were assholes. Is their crime great enough to warrant a prison sentence? They didn’t force her to down vodka shooters and chase them with beer. Those were her decisions.
Everyone behaved badly. But criminally bad?
I don’t think so. This is not worth destroying those boys lives over.
The punishment does not fit the crime.
And as Emma pointed out, why isn’t she being prosecuted for underage drinking? She broke the laws too.
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She didn’t MAKE the guys do what they did, they made that decision themselves. Could she have been more careful, of course, but what’s the point of going on and on about what she should have done? The guys are still guilty. Anyway, how does getting drunk in and of itself make a girl “on her way” to being a “whore”? What does that have to do with anything?
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Even if it wasn’t her first, what does that have to do with this incident? How would previously consenting to a threesome relate to character?
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How would having a consenting threesome when you are 16 years old relate to character?
Jesus.
Are you serious?
How can you even ask that? Waht kind of twisted fantasy world do you live in when you can see a 16 year old girl fucking two guys at once as anything OTHER than the most desperately needy actions of an attention starved child?
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I’m fine with charging her with underaged drinking, but that is a misdemeanor. The boys in this case weren’t charged with underaged drinking either, to my knowledge. I’d love to see a crappy parent registry, sounds like it would include nearly every parent involved in the Ohio town.
Punishment is relative. I think a lot of reasonable people could argue a diverse array of punishments for something like this. Michael Vick got two years for dog fighting. Is this better or worse than dog fighting?
I don’t think they should have a felonious conviction that carries a stigma (and eliminates a few career options) for the rest of their lives, but it should be some criminal penalty. This is far worse than stealing a handbag a Kmart.
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Just to add: Whoa, JB…you’re getting some serious traffic on this issue. Every five minutes it looks like five more posts. Kudos! 🙂
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This is another thing that is wrong with the legal system. A guy shoplifts at 16, mugs someone at 18, then goes on to armed robbery at 20. Everyone will say “we saw it coming” and the precedents will be used in court. Someone else is a binge drinker in their late teens, shows up to work drunk a few years later, then finally causes an accident while drunk driving. Yup, we saw the progression, and the judge will force them to go through counseling because of precedents. But a girl has a threesome at age 16, gets “groped” while completely drunk and then accuses someone who has a perfectly clean record of raping her. Sorry, can’t use her past to determine that maybe, just maybe, she has deep psychological problems and is a liar.
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She hasn’t been charged for underage drinking, because if I remember correctly, most jurisdictions decided that to make it easier for women to report acts of rape, they can promise not to charge them with a crime. You know, because if girls who get raped can be tried for underage drinking, they won’t want to come forward and we’ll have more rapists in the streets (sound argument, terribly implementation and consequences).
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She’ll have sob stories to tell in her college women studies courses. Yes, she will be a hero, a survivor!
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Was it the “first rodeo” for the boyz? The way those two were carrying her by the arms and legs, why, you’d think they were old hands at this!
Did you read some of the comments posted on Twitter from the perps and their friends while the whole ugly mess was happening?
Doesn’t say anything good about their character, does it?
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No, Martini, it doesn’t. But the fact that she was at the party trashed out of her mind without her friends doesn’t say much about HER character, either.
I’m not excusing the boys. I’m saying they are being punished way out of proportion to the “crime”, which amounts to little more than being assholes while drunk and young.
If that’s a criminal offence, most of us should probably be in jail.
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Maybe girls should learn to not get slobbering passed-out dead drunk. By the way, I’ve known more than one woman who claimed she was raped…then continue to see the guy. Imagine that. I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you! Shocked! I’ve also known ones who claimed they were raped because they guy didn’t want to see them again (try Mike Tyson for an example). I’ve also seen women claim sexual harassment because the guy wasn’t interested in them (that happened to me once with a fat single woman) and it happened to a friend of mine after he saw a woman once but wasn’t interested in her after that. My mother, who worked in the ER as a night admitting clerk, once told me 90% of the rape accusations she saw were false. So these rape/sexual harassment charges better have a lot of proof. These dumbass teenage jocks were amazingly stupid to film this, although I think they deserve about a month in the county lockup (try it sometimes if you think it is a breeze). The girl has her own punishment with those pictures being permanently on the internet. My stock answer when things like this happen is this: this is what happens When Morons Collide.
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“In Ohio’s case the boys are to serve 1 year (can be held until 21 years of age)”
Some of those boys are 16; so in other words they could get 5 years. For fingering some chick while she was drunk. Give me a break.
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Feminist can try to expand the definition of rape all they want. But anyone with common sense agrees there has to have been sex in order for someone to have been raped. Getting fingered does not constitute having sex.
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Hey retard, maybe guys should learn that a passed out drunk girl does not give a license to finger-bang, no matter what they think of her. Jesus the comments on this blog are fucking disgraceful. Who fucking cares what kind of girl she was, I don’t give a fuck if she was running around naked most of the night. She was passed out drunk and did NOT SAY YES. Why is that so hard to understand?
Why should any woman have to worry that she might get raped if she hangs out with guys or drinks too much? This says men are shit and can’t be trusted if we have to think like this. I should not have to watch my back constantly for fear of being raped, nor should any woman!
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Yeah, and why should I have to worry about getting robbed if I get smashed and pin $100 bills to my clothes?
I shouldn’t have to worry about someone stealing my stuff.
Why can’t I leave my iPad on the hood of my car and come back and find it the next day.
The world is just so cruel and stupid.
*sob*
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All I have to say is that you are fucking stupid and please, please go kill yourself.
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See, these are the kind of comments, (which i normally would delete)
that i get annoyed about. I mean, I have all types of reasons to go and ‘kill myself’ but (not backing it up with any logical argument, just adding fuck all to a discussion)
because i am stupid? practicing free speech? Elena, is that the best you can do? You may need to go and read more of our site,
if you are going to get into such a tizzy, please do back it up with something besides the obvious.
thanks.
PPP
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I hope the boys get raped and passed around in jail.
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See, that is just proving the point of so many haters. Be you a woman or a man, that you can so easily and anonymously wish
other people to get fucked, or anally fucked against their will as you stated, in defense of a young person who was penetrated
against their will.
I must get back to my technical duty now, and go and edit part 2, I am much too soft to take part in this debate.
love peeps.
Hey JB, i think the point has been made, no more showing or giving these faceless shameless cowards of hate a platform in our house.
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Agreed. All the rest get trashed.
Don’t waste your time, morons.
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I don’t live in a fantasy world. In fact, I’m a Christian so I believe that it’s wrong for males and females to have premarital sex. But I also acknowledge that there are guys and girls out there who do like to have sex, nothing more nothing less (although I’m not denying that there can sometimes be underlying issues for those who are sexually active, especially at a young age).
Yes girls and guys who like threesomes at 16 is pretty extreme, but I’m not going to think that there HAS to be something wrong with them besides the usual going against morals. Looking at it objectively, I’m not going to base her likelihood of lying or her character on her past sexual activities, unless she knowingly falsely accused someone of rape in the past.
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Yes. Rape is wrong and so is what these boys did. No one here is arguing that. If you read what they were saying instead of reading what you fear/want them to be saying, you’d see that.
What the boys did was stupid and wrong. But it was not rape. Sexual harassment or assault, but only if you can prove that she didnt give consent. Seeing as no one was with her 100% of the time I’d have a hard time seeing that unless the boys confessed to it. But saying that women are too drunk to consent but men are always, ALWAYS able to consent is retarded.
But we also have to start teaching women not to do stupid shit. How is it that any time I’m in a coffee shop a woman will ask me to watch her bag for 30 seconds while she pees or refills her drink but she cant have some basic fucking sense on how to protect herself and prevent her most important possession, her body and modesty, from being stolen?
Answer: she’s either dumb as bricks OR WANTS IT TAKEN. I’m against rewarding either of those with punishments that are so harsh as to go against the balance of justice
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Well I admit that I was under the impression that more happened than just her being fingered.
If we were to go by the traditional definition of rape, then at the very least, the guys should have been charged with molestation or sexual assault. All this talk of how the boys should not being punished for making stupid decisions, how they were young and stupid….after a certain age, that’s no excuse. If it’s a crime, it’s a crime.
Now I’ll be honest, I don’t think that they should spend the rest of their lives on the Registered List of Sex Offenders.
Again, I’m sure the girl realizes that she should’ve been more careful, but again, she didn’t make the boys do what they did. We can concentrate on what she did wrong all we want; those boys made the conscious decision to assault her.
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Everyone at the party was drunk/high.
How is that the boys made a “conscious” decision? Why aren’t their actions mitigated by the fact that they were under the influence of alcohol/drugs?
The girl gets a drunk pass, but the boys don’t?
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Jesus. The creeps that crawl out of the bowels of the internet.
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And i hope they find you after leaving jail, so you can tell them that to their faces.
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omg
o.o
wow.
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Hm… does that mean that any time a girl is caught using drugs, she can just point and say the magic word, and she will not be prosecuted?
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“Why should any woman have to worry that she might get raped if she hangs out with guys or drinks too much?”
I’ll get you the shortest answer possible: stupid, drunken high-school/college dumbjock.
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Forget the haters, your post is awesome.
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You *shouldn’t* have to worry about those things, but you do.
But it’s two-sided.
Realistically, we live in a world where there are people who do bad things, whether it’s petty theft or rape with a deadly weapon.
Intelligent people take the necessary steps to lower their risk of having any of those crimes committed against them – and more care against bigger crimes.
To choose to get drunk around unknown guys is very stupid, and setting a girl up for a consequence she doesn’t want.
BUT
That doesn’t make the crime any less wrong. Even if you do wander around drunk with $100 bills tacked to your clothes, everyone else knows perfectly well that it’s wrong to take them, and they should be charged with the crime for doing so.
If you find a girl passed out with little clothing, every decent person knows full well that the thing to do is roll her onto her face/side, and maybe call someone for her. The basic thing to do is leave her alone. If you choose to drag her around and film yourself fingering her, you deserve to be convicted of sexual assault. The fact that she put herself in a stupid position doesn’t mean the boys aren’t fully responsible for not doing something wrong and criminal.
But the fact that they *shouldn’t* have done it doesn’t mean it was unlikely or unpredictable, and doesn’t mean that she should be getting a ‘what the hell’ lecture from her parents regarding putting herself in the position for that to happen.
A person’s stupid choice that makes them an easy victim and another person’s wrong choice to commit a crime against an easy victim do not cancel each other out in any way.
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They WERE incredibly stupid, but not ‘evil.’ This is just another witch hunt, the war on boys for being boys. They just want a Duke LaCrosse style thingy to finally stick to someone. I think Feminists want to shut down the very last bastion of maleness they have to themselves- Sports. The goal is to make sports associated with all things bad, conjures up memories of Manson & his association with Hippies and that slammed the door shut on an entire culture.
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Also consider, that it is quite common for men in prison rape situations, to be anally raped up to five times a day and left with HIV. It’s a fate that might actually be worse than death, (and often leads to death), and certainly worse than most other rapes. Anyone wishing this on another human being, is sick beyond measure; especially when you consider the large number of men, currently being falsely charged and convicted, of imagined crimes against women.
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*disgusting
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So, it’s perfectly fine for a man to get utterly shit-faced and blind drunk, but the second a woman does it, it’s her fault if she gets raped? Bull. Shit.
Gods above, some of the comments in this thread are absolutely disgraceful and it makes me ashamed to think that my fellow human beings actually genuinely believe shit like this. Disgusting.
If you’re drunk, passed out drunk, you can’t consent to ANYTHING. End of.
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So what punishment if any do you see fit for these boys?
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You have no right to accuse this girl of being a whore, you know nothing about her. Think about it this way, if that girl was your sister or your mother would you still be saying she deserved it for getting drunk? What if it was your daughter?
It’s because of people like you that so many victims of sexual abuse never come forward.
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JB, In your comments below, you ask why their actions aren’t mitigated by the fact that they were under the influence of drugs/alcohol… Do perhaps this analogy will help you answer that question…
do we mitigate the actions of someone who gets behind the wheel while intoxicated??? most definitely not.. And why not? Because we are all responsible for OUR OWN ACTIONS while using drugs or alcohol… So those boys are 100% responsible and no alcohol is not a mitigating factor. We are accountable for our own actions only, and that’s what sexual assault is… Sexual assault isn’t someone that someone lets happen to them because they werent being “careful”, sexual assault is something one person CHOOSES to force onto another… AKA it is the boys actions, and thus they are the only ones who are responsible.
I could not agree more about being accountable of our actions while drinking… But we can be accountable for OUR OWN ACTIONS ONLY!!! Sexual assault and rape are the actions of another person.
Do you get it yet? Hope so, if not I’ll try to
Come up with some simpler analogies for you to understand.
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You’re right. And if people who get killed don’t want to die, they probably shouldn’t be walking around somewhere in front of a person with a gun. It’s their fault they get murdered after all.
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“If sex offenders are registered for the protection of all women, then why not register drunk whores for the protection of all men?”
Um, because there’s nothing wrong with a woman who likes to drink and who likes to have sex.
But there IS something wrong with people who wait until someone is passed out and then penetrate their victim.
They even made a video saying “She is so RAPED,” and “She is more dead than Caylee Anthony!”
Yeah… totally… not rape…
Look, I get it. Apparently there’s this *huge* problem (hint- sarcasm here) with women falsely accusing men left and right of assault because they were drunk. But there is an even BIGGER problem (not sarcasm) of people being raped, whether they are drunk or not. Well, when 54% of, let’s just call it “real” rapes get reported to the police (because of victim-shaming like this) then I doubt there is a whole lot of enthusiasm for people make up a fake story, especially when people write blog entries dedicated to making sure victims feel like pieces of shit.
Finally, I’d just like to say that the boys were convicted in a court of law. Do you really think the judge hasn’t heard everything you’ve said? Maybe not in this specific case, but just in his whole life. Yet, he reviewed the evidence, heard the arguments, and gave his decision. So, are you going to make excuses for convicted murderers too? Say the victim probably shouldn’t have been trying to get killed?
Look, based off of the video they made, cracking jokes about how they urinated on her (unless, of course, you really think a 16 year old wanted to get pissed on in her sleep) then those boys are degenerate human beings who don’t have a conscience, moral code, or respect for others.
If you’re on their side, well, then by all means, go be friends with them.
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No. If she’s caught willingly using drugs outside of her reporting a crime inflicted on her, she will still be charged. If a woman is caught willingly using drugs, and then introduces a sexual assault, she will still be charged for the illegal substance use and the sexual assault will be handled separately. The difference is: if and when a person is victimized, they are able to disclose use of intoxicants as a part of THEIR case – without getting charged (because the case wasn’t about the drugs/alcohol, and the victim wasn’t caught by the authorities for it originally). Does that make sense to you?
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Ha! Too bad I have your IP and I’m actually sending this to the police. That is a threat.
You’re a sorry sorry guy or girl.
No one is afraid of you.
You’re trash. Obviously making that more and more clear.
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You could not be more wrong. Rape, is rape. If she was promiscuous, or a virginal, she was raped.
If she liked the boys, or hated them, they themselves called it rape.
Any other rape victim could tell you…
Rape, is rape. There is no excuse, no rationalization, no good reason at all.
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If someone enters your body without your consent, doesn’t matter how or what was inserted, that’s rape. No one has a right to “play” with another person’s body. No one has the right to use another person’s body as an object. Those boys behaved worse than the lowest primates. It’s the 21st century so everyone, even entitled football stars, should have evolved enough sense to know that.
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Actually, legally (in many jurisdictions) AND morally, vaginally, anally or orally penetrating someone with any object- penis, finger or otherwise, without the consent of the penetrated person and for sexual gratification is rape. Rape rape. Legitimate rape. Real rape.
Unfortunately the majority of people either do not understand the law or do not understand what consent means so they erroneously think these actions are not rape. Rape victims then don’t report or if they do they get stuck with a jury full of people unable to conceptualize what the crime of unwanted penetration is like.
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Actually yes, the person benefitting from the contract has a legal duty to not enter into a contract with a person who is visibly drunk and thus unable to consent.
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wow .. if you had any clue how much worse that could have been… and their sentence is a slap on the wrist compared to what they might ‘get away with’ next time, knowing they had gotten away with this small bit this time (IF they had been let free). You think killers start just shooting people? They started with bodies in their freezer? Starting small and feeling the empowerment of getting away with it is what prompts criminal minds to go further and worse.
She’s a kid with a crush. She wanted to meet new friends. Possibly tried to over impress new friends by appearing to be able to drink. She failed at looking bad ass, and nothing more. Calling her a whore for it … way out of line. Since when is this world going to wake up and start finger pointing properly instead of going off the people who actually named their attacker/s and wanted justice. Since when is fighting against something wrong happening to you a bad thing?
And every single person who watched her get carried around is as guilty as the boys are, in my opinion. Evil is not only what you do, but what you allow to happen without stopping it. I have been gang raped, it was a nightmare that stays with me for life … but I STILL believe this young lady had the right to say: “No what happened to me was wrong and shouldn’t be allowed to continue!”
Shame on anyone who promotes allowing boys and men to treat women as if they were toys for their sexual entertainment. Shame on anyone who points a finger at the person who has been victimized (no matter how small or large YOU may think the crime) and proclaims her the wrong one. Just shame.
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JB- Thank you for writing something sensible. I just noticed on facebook today a series of memes of feminist outcry condemning the media for being too soft on the boys. I’m sure you’ve seen this already, but I’ll link it anyhow (most awkward link ever): http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/03/18/1732701/media-steubenville/?fb_action_ids=10100616122462673&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%2210100616122462673%22%3A389439947819998%7D&action_type_map=%7B%2210100616122462673%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5DHonestly,
I doubt any of these girls who are signing up for the opportunity to call attention to our ‘rape culture’ have even looked into the details of the case. Man, does that suck for those kids.
The sad thing, though, as I see it, is how far over our ‘normal’ has shifted for most people when talking about these issues. I am going down to present at a conference at my alma mater college in a few weeks, and I will see my old Spanish professor who is also a gender studies prof. I actually would love to have an intelligent dialogue with her about feminism and gender issues today now that I have been researching them for the last couple of years informally, but I feel like I would have to tip toe around so many ideas as to not to offend her that the debate wouldn’t even be worth having. I’m going to see what I can do anyhow, though.
For a future video series, how about a tutorial: “How to kindly show feminists how wrong they are about many things.”
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I’m actually from the town. Half of the people on my Facebook read the texts sent from Mays’ phone(a lot of stuff in there and I still have the link). Also there were things said about anal penetration, one of them slapping his penis off of her(not sure if these are 100% but they were mentioned in some of the multitudes of texts)… they found a god damn “DNA sample” from Mays on the couch!
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Just for the record I have amazing parents.
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I just have to disagree that this has ruined those boys lives. They’re obviously not very bright, and all they had going for them was playing on some podunk, famous-for-Ohio football team. The odds of them doing anything more impressive than being able to afford a double-wide someday were always slim. This hasn’t changed their prospects all that much.
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Why weren’t the boys also charged with underage drinking? If you guys want to talk about everyone being accountable then that should be added to their charges and sentences, I don;t agree with underage drinking but every talks about her getting charged with it and no one mentions the boys getting charged with it.
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What in God’s name is this steaming pile of faeces? Rape is sexual activity without consent. With her admittedly being off her face, she was in no state of mind to actively consent to sexual activity, so yes this girl was raped. Yes, girls who get drunk and show themselves up at parties are annoying but for crying out loud, how does that in any way mean that she deserves to be raped? Let’s turn this around, shall we? The girl had no way of indicating whether or not she wanted to have sex, but the lads who committed this offence had the CHOICE to leave her alone. But instead, chose to commit a horrific act. Rape ruins lives. This ‘article’ is nothing more than a mere attempt at victim blaming and it disgusts me right to the core. It’s a good thing people like you aren’t running governments, society would be screwed.
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Hailing from India and having never travelled abroad, I regarded the US of A to be several notches higher when it came to women’s safety and imparting justice and of course awareness among citizens (one of those common myths). It’s funny to think of it now, as a similar incident took place in India last year and one of the most common arguments was: “why isn’t the bitch being sued for underage drinking?” It’s always okay if a man decides to drink and pass out wherever he wishes to, because it’s normal, because he is more powerful, because he won’t get raped, because he will never be labelled a WHORE. Of course, this ‘bitch’ needs to learn a lesson. She decided to trust fellow humans.
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You have got to be kidding me. They get a year in Juvey. Weh weh weh. Did you see the video? She was unconscious what kind of lame ass man needs a woman unconscious to get a piece of ass? Then to film it and put it on facebook. over 15,000 images. They even called it “rape night”. Yeah it was dumb to get drunk like that, but since when did the penalty for stupidity equal on film humiliation, digital penetration, and public death threats?
I like your blog usually, but you are off the mark on this one. I think you are perpetrating girl on girl crime.
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I often consider what it would have been like if the genders were reversed. Would the legal system and media blowback would have been the same?
Of course not.
I actually wrote this a long time ago but I never published it, about a sexual encounter I had when I was black out drunk in high school. I think it’s a very appropriate read considering today’s topic:
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I want to know why the handjob she gave the one boy wasn’t factored into the case. It’s pretty clear to me she was consenting if that’s what she did an hour later when she “woke up”. It was in the tweet collection that they used for evidence. They say two of her girlfriends, including the one she went to the party with, testified that she fought them to leave with the boys, and they haven’t spoken since because the girl is known to lie!
I knew a girl who “slept” through a number of sexual encounters. I couldn’t figure out if she was just telling me that in case I heard something through the grapevine or what. I finally told a friend of ours about it, and he gave it a whirl one night when she spent the night at his house. Sure enough, she “slept” through the whole event. Laid there like a dead fish and the only time she moved was when she lifted her ass so he could slide her panties off.
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Well, the courts found her guilty so I’d say that means that they proved beyond a reasonable doubt that she did not give consent.
Where are you getting this nonsense about “women are too drunk to consent but men are always to consent?” Nobody said that or implied that. They’re talking about one specific case and in this case, the girl was too drunk to be able to give consent. That is not implied consent as you suggest. Sure, her behavior may have been careless and reckless, but that is not the same as giving implicit consent.
Bob, you seem to be suggesting that the girl should have expected to be raped, because after all “boys will be boys” (I mean, they’re just dumb jocks, they don’t know that it’s wrong to sexually assault an unconscious female, so it’s her fault).
There’s no excuse for their behavior. They deserve 10 years in prison.
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You are still responsible for your actions if you decide to get drunk or high. If you decide to get drunk or high, then you do so knowing that drugs and alcohol will change the way you think. You are still responsible for your actions after intentionally getting yourself intoxicated.
Self-induced intoxication is not an excuse for committing crimes.
“Why aren’t their actions mitigated by the fact that they were under the influence of alcohol/drugs?”
Because they consciously chose to get drunk or take drugs.
You wouldn’t excuse a drunk driver for killing someone in a car crash because they were drunk, would you? No, of course they.
If you decide to get intoxicated then you do so knowing full well that getting intoxicated will alter your behavior. If you get so intoxicated that you do something stupid, then only you are to blame because you are responsible for what you put in your body.
“The girl gets a drunk pass, but the boys don’t?”
She didn’t sexually assault herself.
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Using drugs is not a crime. Even if her toxicology reports had come back for a plethora of drugs, that would be irrelevant. It’s possession of drugs that is a crime. Once those drugs have been ingested, the police can’t do anything.
Why haven’t the young men been charged with drinking underage?
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You don’t seem to get it. It doesn’t matter how many people she may or may not have had sex with. None of that justifies sexual assault.
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Here’s an idea, since you’re out on a mission, why not duke it out with Rollins? http://www.underthegunreview.net/2013/03/18/henry-rollins-comments-on-steubenville-rape-verdict/ And even if you wouldn’t, it’s a good read. I know, you play with what you got, maybe trying to be as provocative as you can will get you where you want to be. Good luck, best wishes.
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” So if a woman is completely drunk, becomes flirty with a guy, and then almost passes out, she has to understand he has perfectly valid reasons to believe that is just the interaction she wants: drunk sex. ”
You can’t consent to sex when you’re unconscious.
” this whole idea that you can’t consent while drunk is bullshit.”
NOBODY was arguing that you can’t consent to sex while drunk. She couldn’t consent because she literally could not speak. You can’t consent to sex if you’re unconscious.
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“Yeah, and why should I have to worry about getting robbed if I get smashed and pin $100 bills to my clothes? ”
Being careful is always a good idea, but it makes no difference. Even if you did something like the above and made it easy for someone to steal your things, that doesn’t mean their culpability is any less reduced.
Most ordinary people are in situations EVERY DAY where committing a crime and getting away with it would be easy and would benefit the person. Shoplifting is moronically simple, but most people don’t do it and the fact that it’s easy doesn’t make it any less of a crime.
Think about crimes against the elderly. Elderly people are easy targets for crime. They’re easy to physically overpower and they can be easier to be tricked into handing over money. Does that mean stealing from elderly people is less of a crime than stealing from someone else? The fact that the victim is in a position of vulnerability somehow excuses the act?
Everyone is tempted to commit crimes. It doesn’t matter if it’s easy to do so or if the victim is being careless about their safety. Rape is still rape, regardless of whether the victim is a woman in a burka with an AK-47 or an unconscious 16 year old girl. Theft is theft, regardless of whether the victim has their money hidden in their shoe or if their openly counting hundreds of dollars on the subway. Sure, you can say a person is stupid for making themselves vulnerable, but it doesn’t make a criminal act any less criminal. These two guys are criminals and sex offenders.
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Wow, what a prude.
Sex is normal and healthy. Who cares if a 16 year old girl has a threesome. Big deal. Even so, it doesn’t excuse sexual assault. Why is that so hard to understand?
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I teach health education to local schools and my main workshop is actually about rape and sexual assault. Here are some of the things we teach the teens:
1. The victim is never to blame for what happened.
2. A person cannot consent to sex or any type of sexual activity when they are under the influence.
3. The person who initiates sexual activity is always responsible for getting consent from the partner.
Just because the boys were drunk/high as you say, does not in any way mean they should be excused from their crimes. For example: If a person drives drunk and crashes into someone and kills them, does that mean that they should not be held responsible for their actions? Alcohol or any type of drug does not excuse bad behavior. Especially not in the eyes of the law. Those boys knew it was wrong to undress an unconscious girl, take pictures of it and then sexually assault her. Although this is not the conservative definition of rape, it is still unwanted sexual activity. Granted the girl should not have had so much to drink, but you cannot say she was responsible in any way for what was done to her. That is like saying: Well she was walking down a sketchy street and got mugged. Its her fault because she should know better than to walk down a sketchy street.
I understand that you feel this punishment was too harsh for these boys, but laws like this are made to protect people. I’m sure you would feel completely different if this were your daughter or your sister. Can you honestly say that teaching not to get raped is more effective than teaching not to rape?
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How could she have lied about it if they took pictures of it and sent it around to all their friends? If that isn’t enough proof them I’m not sure what is.
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If a person commits a crime while drunk, whether it’s sexual assault, vehicular assault or homicide, murder, manslaughter, or whatever else, they’re held accountable for it. A person is accountable for what they do while drunk; they aren’t accountable for what’s done to them, particularly if those actions constitute a crime. And by the way, any kind of sexual penetration without consent, whether it’s with fingers, a penis, a beer bottle, or whatever else, it is rape. So this means fingers or any other instrument being placed in the vagina or anus is rape, and so is unwanted oral sex.
Also, rape is still rape even if there’s no physical violence apart from the assault itself inflicted on the victim, and it’s still rape even if the victim is unconscious due to drinking too much. That is how the law defines it.
The girl shouldn’t have been drunk, but she also should have been safe from sexual assault while drunk.
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This incident only helps to convince me that the lax attitude taken toward underage drinking is a grave mistake. I know everyone says ‘they’re going to do it anyway,’ but most lief-ruining events that happen to teenagers, like this one, invariably seem to happen while some or all parties are intoxicated. Teenagers are generally stupid, almost by definition. Alcohol is a neurotoxin that makes people stupid. Combine teenagers with a stupidity-inducing neurotoxin and you’re asking for bad things to happen.
And since boys are actually held accountable for their actions while intoxicated, that means no second chances. One of the many reasons why I don’t drink.
Almost forgot. Anyone wanna place bets on how long it will take for this event to be made into a fantastically dramatized Law and Order SVU episode?
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So let me get this straight. If you judgybitch and I’m assuming you’re a guy go to a party get wasted and pass out and you wake up the next morning with your pants around your ankles and you then find out there is pictures of you getting anally fingered you wouldn’t consider it a serious sexual assault? Oh right you would blame yourself for getting wasted. I mean you should have known better right? And the guys who fingered you were just being douche bags and don’t deserve jail time. Is that about right?
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Everyone involved didn’t commit a huge crime.
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If no one there knows if she consented then who did she consent to? Yes, men can say no too.
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Yes, people should only be charged with a crime if they have been charged with one before.
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Could you provide a link to show the statistic of the large numbers of men being falsely accused? I agree that prison rape is wrong. That means we should fix our prisons, not avoid charging people with crimes.
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I think it’s insulting to men for anyone to call this just a ‘witch hunt’ of ‘boys being boys’, I know plenty of boys and none of them would EVER think that this kind of behaviour is acceptable. When most boys get drunk they might say some rude things, but no one I know would perpetrate a violent crime, film it, then put it on social media.
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I have sons, and I can’t imagine them doing anything like this. And if they did, I wouldn’t be on national television supporting them and saying they were good boys. My husband and I had a conversation with my oldest last night (didn’t mention this incident, just a generality). Told him that if he ever sees something really bad happening at a party: 1)don’t participate 2)don’t take pictures 3)intervene and try to stop the activity. Irony is, if someone had really confronted the retards when it got out of hand they would have probably stopped (I know for a fact when my husband was a teen he would have said something). And no one would be in jail and no pictures would have been sent out. Instead it sounds as though the kids were all validating it.
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Good point, Alex.
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Those pictures will probably not ever go away. But the boys were tried as youths and can clear their record at age 21. Though their DNA will probably remain in the sex offender data base, they will not have to register as sex offenders as long as they are never convicted of sex crimes again. All part of being a youth.
If they boys are victims, they are victims of being raised in a world with a mentality where the boys can do no wrong, even if it is physically violating a girl who has no way of saying “no” or defending herself. Being raised that “being a man” means taking whatever they can get from women whenever, by any means, without even thinking how she feels as a human. For being raised that women who are not in a convent or being actively protected are up for grabs. These boys were failed. Failed by the culture that told them they could get away with anything if they were star athletes and good students. Failed by backwards people raising them in a rape culture.
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If a jaywalker gets hit by a drunk driver, they don’t ticket the jaywalker. They focus on the worst crime.
Also, they granted immunity for testimony from the witnesses. They probably did the same for her. Or they just thought her body being publicly violated and humiliated again and again and again was punishment enough
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I was recently reading an abstract on PubMed about the toxicology of rape. Of the cases involving intoxication only 2% cases were proven to have involved the notorious series of “date rape” drugs. The vast majority involved “self induced” drugs such as alcohol, cocaine and pot.
The pattern is clear. Once a woman has taken anything, you can’t trust her to take responsibility for any of her actions. The rape charge you may face will be fueled by drugs she takes herself. Get a drug test kit.
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Check out ‘White Bear’ part of the Charlie Brooker second trilogy Black Mirror.
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I don’t see how its nonsense to find the inequality between what the level of intoxication means for sexual consent between the two sexes.
Women: able to reach a level of intoxication where, even if they say yes, they are considered too drunk to consent by the law.
Men: have no such laws. No matter how much alcohol you consume you’re responsible for your actions.
Men can be charged for ‘raping’ someone who said yes that is less intoxicated than they are.
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I’m a guy. If I went alone (i.e. crashed) to a ballet/figure skating after-party teeming with obviously horny, gay dudes, I wouldn’t get smashing drunk and pass out. You know, because I’m not a moron.
If one of my moron friends did, I would (a) tell him to press charges, and (b) tell him he’s a fucking idiot for thinking getting falling-down-drunk in a room full of guys who were interested in his butthole was a good idea.
Getting sexually assaulted doesn’t mean you’re not a fucking idiot.
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Well. I’m a high school counselor, and I read this last night, and this morning, not half an hour ago, a couple girls came up to me with an ipad and stuck it in my face and asked me if I’d seen this and if so what I thought of it. And after giving them the boilerplate admonition of them showing me a blog with the f-bomb in the title, I told them yeah, I’d seen it, they wanted to know what I thought? OK…
On the one hand, she (this writer is a she) has at least ONE point: that the kids in question are KIDS and should not be punished too harshly for being kids and making kid mistakes.
“See?” the one girl said to the other one.
“BUT…”
On the other hand, I said, since when was anyone of any age raping anyone just a “kid mistake”? Let alone gleefully degrading this girl (whether she “played along” or “wanted it” or whatever. As someone who was raped at a high school party, trust me: alcohol does funny things to someone who’s never had much of it) and not JUST “gleefully degrading her,” but PUBLICALLY doing it: bragging about it in texts and posting pics and videos of it online, putting it on Twitter, where it was “Watch us show you how trashy this bitch is.”
“AND…”
To me the scariest part of this article is that the writer not only has these opinions, which she’s entitled to, but she feels like she’s SO right that she not only has license to disagree, but the right to call these people out, reveal their contact information and location… basically disrespect, humilate, and shame someone she doesn’t like.
Sound familiar?
So what do I think of it? Fail. Big, clueless fail.
“See?” the other girl said back to the first one and then looked at me. “THANK you!”
And the argument continued as they walked away.
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Engaging in high-risk behavior does not mean you “deserve” to have something bad happen to you. If I walk alone at night in a dangerous section of the city, I don’t “deserve” to get mugged. But when I do in fact get mugged, yes, my own poor choices are partly to blame. It doesn’t make the mugger less guilty. But the mugger’s guilt does not make me less stupid.
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If a man gets shit-faced and blind drunk, he’s held at least partially responsible for whatever happens to him afterward.
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So you do in fact believe that the woman (since men nearly always initiate) is not responsible for her sexual behavior when she’s drunk or high.
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Doing shit to passed out guys is a tradition. Ass fingering would be the least of my worries.
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That is the convenience of laws making clear distinctions. Ohio law makes it clear that “fingering” is legally defined as rape. It also makes it clear that consent must be obvious. The boys said that she was “dead”. The dead don’t give consent.
Everyone must learn how to best protect themselves. But when a criminal attacks you, it is a crime. When a rapist rapes you, it is a crime. Would you like to have been able to made better choices?
Of course, but that doesn’t make the rapist less of a rapist.
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You recognize the dangers of alcohol, and your only response to the girls who showed you this post is to ignore it, keep drinking, and party like animals? A “counselor” like you that sets up girls to have bad experiences should be held criminally liable.
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And not to post one more thing, but I really want to thank you for this post. It doesn’t matter whether I or the students I’ve talked to agree or disagree with what you say. It is provoking a lot of discussion and thought and bringing all these things people think and say and feel about something like this out into the open.
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Hey guys – JB is NOT saying the guys should get a pass. They acted like total a-holes. She is saying they should be held to the same justice (or lack there-of) as the girl. If she gets a pass because she was young and drunk, how come the boys don’t get a pass because they were young and drunk? And if they are punished despite that, why isn’t she? Are boys/men now considered guilty until proven innocent?
Another point well taken – all the “adults” were AWOL during the events in question but suddenly appear to deliver their J’accuse after the fact.
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Thank you, Robert!
All this debate about rape/not rape is NOT the point.
Is this an appropriate punishment? Ruin their lives over something she is excused for?
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They ruined their lives over choices they made. Victims of crimes are just that, victims. Getting raped isn’t getting excused.
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Should have been safe while drunk? Her vagina also should have retractable fangs. In reality there is no safety when engaged in reckless behavior. Yes, perpetrators should be punished, but that doesn’t fix what happened.
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Well-said.
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I’ve had this discussion too: “where were the adults?” I don’t think that there’s a “lax attitude toward underage drinking.” What it IS is like I said to a friend on Facebook: this was a kid’s party with alcohol, so “where the adults were” was, by design, as far away from the party as the kids could put themselves. Saying that it happens doesn’t mean it’s right or that we condone it (as someone who replied to my comment above seemed to think I was saying). It means that we as adults invent radar systems designed to detect and curtail these activities, and kids (being even more clever than we were at their age) find ways to jam it and fly under it.
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I agree that her behavior was reckless, but that’s not a crime. It is stupid, but it’s not criminal and even if it was, it’s not nearly as serious as rape.
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“Of the cases involving intoxication only 2% cases were proven to have involved the notorious series of “date rape” drugs.”
All that suggests to me is that alcohol is the most commonly used date rape drug.
Drugs like GHB and ketamine are often called “date rape drugs” without justification.
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” This is just another witch hunt, the war on boys for being boys.”
Even if this kind of aberrant behavior were normal, that doesn’t justify it. It doesn’t matter if this is “boys will be boys.” Saying that people often act a certain way doesn’t justify anything.
That being said, I know men can be disgusting pigs. I am a man. I assure you that if any young man I went to high school with even tried to do something like this to a young woman that people would have beat the shit out of him. Being a young man is not an excuse for criminal behavior.
Please stop trying to defend my gender. I find it insulting that you think I went through a period of potentially being a rapist simply because I had to be a teenage boy once.
” I think Feminists want to shut down the very last bastion of maleness they have to themselves- Sports.”
What the hell are you talking about and what does this have to do with this case? Oh, I get it, you think this is all about them being football players? I wouldn’t care if they belonged to the computer club or if they were totally queer.
I think the last bastion of maleness is considered combat. If women want to go to combat, then I say let them. If men are so insecure about their identities that they can’t handle women playing sports or becoming front line soldiers, that’s too bad.
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Please cite the law you’re referring to.
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When I partied as a teenager, we went far into the ravine and city parks where nobody could find us. Not even the police could find us. There weren’t any adults because none were around. I’m happy to say nobody got raped. Heck, I never even saw one fight break out and we all got drunk as hell and (gasp) used lots of drugs.
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Thing is, there’s also an age where one has to take some level of responsiblity and it isn’t 18. There’s a wide range between one and 18. My grandfather was over in the Pacific fighting the Japanese when he was 17. I was home alone for a week while my parents went to Las Vegas when I was 16 and didn’t throw any parties (nor, I suppose it should be said, did I get drunk or pass out anywhere). I went to school and had a job.
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“The pattern is clear. Once a woman has taken anything, you can’t trust her to take responsibility for any of her actions.”
You’re citing on abstract and making an illogical conclusion based on it. First of all, can you cite your source?
Secondly, can you explain your argument? In cases involving “intoxication” only 2% involved so-called date rape drugs. All that says to me is that the so-called “date rape drugs” are called that because of media hype and not because they’re commonly used for date rape. You make no mention of what drugs were found in the other 98% of cases, nor do you provide any kind of explanation for how this means that “once a woman has taken anything, you can’t trust her to take responsibility for her actions.” There’s a huge leap in reaasoning there which I think you need to explain.
“The vast majority involved “self induced” drugs such as alcohol, cocaine and pot.”
You’re assuming that the drugs are “self induced.” What the heck is a “self induced” drug? Ketamine is often called a “date rape drug” but every time I used it, I chose to use it. I know people who chose to take GHB. Just because you can chose to take cocaine doesn’t mean that it is impossible to slip into one’s drink.
I think you’re citing the paper that I found below and the abstract says that in about 2/3rds of the cases which involved a positive drug test, the drugs were unexpected, meaning that the (alleged) victim did not report voluntarily consuming within the last 72 hours. I suspect some of the drug use was simply underreported. With cannabinoids, I would find it reasonable to believe that in many of those cases, the complainant has simply smoked more than 72 hours prior and they still had cannabinoids present in their system. I doubt marijuana would make a good date rape drug and adding it to someone’s food would still leave a distinct taste. Cocaine made up about 1/3 of the unexpected drugs. Since it wouldn’t make a particularly good date rape drug, it’s possible that some of the positives were due to adulteration. Amphetamines can make people horny, so it’s plausible that it could be used as a date rape drug in the sense it may make one more likely to want sex. The same is true of MDMA in some cases.
The authors note that the unexpected drugs in combination with unexpected male DNA lended “support for their contention that they had been intentionally drugged and sexually assaulted.”
The fact that many of the drugs found were what you call “self induced” (a prejudicial and inaccurate term) doesn’t really tell us much. Many drug users don’t know anything about drugs, even drugs they’ve used for years. They don’t know if their drugs are adulterated. Some don’t even know which drugs are stimulants and which are CNS depressants.
Drug-facilitated sexual assault in Ontario, Canada: toxicological and DNA findings. (2010) Du Mont J, Macdonald S, Rotbard N, Bainbridge D, Asllani E, Smith N, Cohen MM. J Forensic Leg Med. 17: 333 – 338.
Uring samples were positive fordrugs in about 45% of cases. Alcohol 13%. Alcohol and other drugs 18%. Ketamine 2% and GHB 1%. One complicating factor is that GHB and ketamine are metabolized quite rapidly and so may not be detectable for particularly long periods.
The abstract implies basically what I said above (that alcohol is the most commonly used date rape drug), “Most unexpected drugs found were not those typically described as ‘date rape drugs’.”
You probably should have looked at more than one article. How about this:
Jones AW, Holmgren A, Ahlner J. (2012) Toxicological analysis of blood and urine samples from female victims of alleged sexual assault. Clin Tox (Phila). 50: 555 -561.
The major illicit drugs found were marihuana and amphetamines. The major prescription drugs found WERE those which would be usedful for daterape: diazepam, alprazolam and zopiclone.
Surprisingly, a third paper find that the most commonly drugs found in alleged date rape cases were cannabinoids and amphetamine:
Adamowicz P, Kała M. (2005) Date-rape drugs scene in Poland. Przegl Lek. 62: 572 – 575.
Based on these three aspects, the conclusion I’m coming to is that people who commit date-rape either don’t know jack shit about these drugs or I don’t know anything about how to commit date rape. I suspect that it’s due to people being stupid about drugs. Even though pharmacologists know that MDMA isn’t an aphrodisiac, some people will believe it could facilitate date-rape because it could make the victim appear to be a willing participant (by increasing their desire and altering their judgement). Amphetamine is notorious for increasing sexual desire. Probably those trying to facilitae date rape with MDMA or amphetamines are trying a more “subtle” approach and trying to avoid knocking the person unconscious. The paper cited below discusses some of these issues.
Jansen KL, Theron L. (2006) Ecstasy (MDMA), methamphetamine, and date rape (drug-facilitated sexual assault): a consideration of the issues. J Psychoactive Drugs. 38: 1 – 12.
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Aaaaannnnnd no one’s saying you should go to prison because you’re stupid. The anti-stupidity brigade is merely saying we should be allowed to call stupid, trashy behavior what it is, stupid and trashy, without being accused of being pro-rape or pro-whatever.
The prohibition on calling things what they are and saying the truth about what actually happens helps nobody.
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You need to be less selective in the data you chose to use.
If you look at the scientific literature, you’ll find that amphetamine is one of the most common drugs found in date-rape cases.
It is not particularly difficult to find a number of references to amphetamine, cocaine and cannabis in cases of date-rape. While this surprises me, since these drugs are not known to cause unconsciousness or amnesia, an explanation is presented by Jansen et al. (2006).
Jansen et al. suggests that those trying to use MDMA or amphetamine are not trying to render their victim’s unconscious but are trying to seduce their victims with the aid of a drug they have surreptitiously administered to their victim. With amphetamines, MDMA, cannabis and cocaine, the intent is to alter the victim’s judgement, increase sexual arousal and cause general disinhibition.
When you try using data published in the scientific literature, it’s a good idea to cite your source. I guess you didn’t do that because it seems clear to me that you were being deliberately misleading. You should also avoid unjustifiable assumptions, such as the assumption that amphetamine use is always self-induced. Whether or not you use data from the scientific literature, you should probably also try to offer a logical argument to support your conclusion(s). Your conclusion about women never taking responsibility for their actions simply because they’ve taken a drug is not supported by the one poorly chosen fact you’ve highlighted. Maybe if you tried offering a sensible argument leading from premises to conclusion then we’d have some idea of how you made such a leap in logic.
Adamowicz P, Kała M. (2005) Date-rape drugs scene in Poland. Przegl Lek. 62: 572 – 575.
Du Mont J, Macdonald S, Rotbard N, Bainbridge D, Asllani E, Smith N, Cohen MM. (2010) Drug-facilitated sexual assault in Ontario, Canada: toxicological and DNA findings. J Forensic Leg Med. 17: 333 – 338.
Jansen KL, Theron L. (2006) Ecstasy (MDMA), methamphetamine, and date rape (drug-facilitated sexual assault): a consideration of the issues. J Psychoactive Drugs. 38: 1 – 12.
Jones AW, Holmgren A, Ahlner J. (2012) Toxicological analysis of blood and urine samples from female victims of alleged sexual assault. Clin Tox (Phila). 50: 555 -561.
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The fact that ‘no-one has a right to do x and should be criminally prosecuted if they do’ and the fact that ‘intelligent people should realize that if they make themselves an easy target, people who do x (which they shouldn’t do) still exist and x may happen to them’ are two separate issues.
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To see boys get drunk and treat a passed out girl this way, then say “oh, boys will be boys” is to have a really low opinion of boys.
There isn’t a man in my life who would have ever thought to do this, even when 18 and drunk.
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Reasonable disagreement is given plenty platform here.
Email addresses and location were only given for those who posted threats and insults.
It’s a pretty simple distinction.
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This is not an equal issue though.
She was young and drunk and passed out. That earns her mockery and some ‘what the hell were you thinking?’ lectures, but she committed no crime.
Had the boys got drunk and passed out, they would have earned the same. Instead, they were young and drunk and decided to sexually assault another person.
Both are to be held responsible for their actions, but her actions did not hurt another person, nor violate the criminal code. Theirs did.
Everyone may be young once, but not everyone gets drunk, and not everyone who is young and gets drunk then finds themself compelled to commit a crime.
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“If sex offenders are registered for the protection of all women, then why not register drunk whores for the protection of all men?”
Because being a “whore” is not a criminal offence (excluding theocratic black holes, like Saudi Arabia), while sex assault and harassment are. Only rapists would benefit from such a law, and being a man, I find your idea that Steinbenville rapists’ behaviour is “male norm” as deeply insulting.
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I didn’t say it was normal. I said it was predictable. Stealing people’s cars isn’t normal for most people, but if you leave the doors open and the keys in the ignition, you ought to be able to predict what might happen.
I am NOT excusing the boys. I am saying that the girl behaved very poorly too, and the punishment is way out of proportion to the crime.
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This is not at all uncommon and it shouldn’t be a mystery. Watch _The First 48_ on A&E. When someone is murdered and it’s over drugs, the homicide detectives will approach the victim’s friends and say, “We don’t care if you were selling dope with [the victim]. We just want to catch who did this to your friend.” It doesn’t matter if the friends were selling heroin or whatever the “worst” drug you can think of is. The police are being pragmatic: they ignore the lesser offence in order to solve the murder. If the police didn’t do that then many of those cases wouldn’t get solved because the friends of the victim would not come forward because they’d fear getting arrested. That might just lead to more murders because it would deprive the victim’s friends (and family) the chance of getting justice through the courts, so the friends might take the law in their own hands.
So, consider this case analagous. Jane Doe won’t be charged because the police are more concerned with prosecuting a serious crime like rape, rather than prosecuting a minor “crime” like underage possession of alcohol. If JD were fearful of being charged with underage possession, then the rape might not get prosecuted. The police have to decide which is more important: charging a 16 year old for underage possession of alcohol or charging two youths for rape. There is no question about which crime is more serious.
As for the definition of rape, I don’t see why it should not be considered rape if the accused only uses a finger to penetrate the victim’s body. Does it have to be his penis? Wouldn’t that mean that only men could commit rape? A woman with a strap-on technically would not be able to rape another woman, even if she tied that woman up and repeatedly sodomized her with a strap-on dildo. The idea that it’s only rape if a penis is used to penetrate part of the body seems to suggest that whether or not the accused “gets off” is the crucial detail, but I don’t see why that should be the case. If a man sticks his penis, finger or a bottle in a woman’s vagina, without consent, then it’s rape. It’s rape because whether or not the accused actually “gets off” or gets any substantial sexual pleasure out of the experience is totally irrelevant. It is irrelevant because the victim is being sexually violated. Whether it’s a man’s penis being forced in a woman’s mouth or one woman with a bottle shoving it into another woman’s anus is totally irrelevant: the victim is being violated in a sexual manner. Whether you want to call it “rape” or “sexual assault” doesn’t really matter either because both are horrendous crimes.
All of the focus on JD’s careless actions is the same as blaming the victim. I agree that her behavior can be considered careless and she could have been more cautious, but that is completely irrelevant. Just because she was an easy target due to the fact that she drank to much and didn’t take precautions does not mean that the two guilty parties deserve leniency. Characterizing her as a “drunk whore” is blaming the victim. No matter how you try to construe it, you are trying to partially blame the victim.
Suppose she was a 16 year old, alcoholic, heroin-addicted prostitute who had sex with multiple partners five times a week (meaning that many might agree that calling her a “drunk whore” has some semblance of truth). Suppose we also knew without a doubt that she threw caution into the wind and despite being a street-wise prostitute who should have known better but left herself vulnerable. Suppose she also had no friends with her to keep an eye on her during a night which she openly said she was going to get “out of control drunk.” Even if we suppose that all that was true, none of that has any relevance with respect to the two guilty parties. They still committed a sexual assault / rape. They treated her like a toy. She did not deserve to be urinated on. Their actions were wrong. Her willful vulnerability does not excuse their actions nor does it make their actions any less wrong.
“Boys will be boys” is the worst possible attempt at providing an excuse that anyone could give for their actions. It is akin to saying “criminals will be criminals” and expecting people to accept criminal behavior because, after all, they’re criminals. Tautologies do not justify sexual assault. Yes, “boys will be boys” but even boys should be punished for criminal acts.
I don’t see anything in the general media or blogosphere that is at all indicative of a “war on boys.” Those coming to the defense of the two young men with statements like “boys will be boys” are perpetuating the idea that young men are entitled to treat “drunk whores” as toys.
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Well yes, because she didn’t do anything wrong. The boys aren’t being punished for getting drunk – they are being punished for sexually assaulting someone.
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Fingering someone isnt rape
It’s CALLED masturbation …
REAL RAPE involves assault, precisely because assault is a provable crime, with a REAL injury
There is NO injury in masturbation
Liberal priviliged feminist bitches make me sick
Go back to dildoing lesbo’s you retarded hags & shove your useless womens rights up your man hating asses
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You don’t actually know very much about how ANY of the actors in this particular melodrama behaved. You are committing the same sin of assumption that you chastise others for. To start with, you have no basis for claiming you know her motivation for attending the party, just as you have no basis for claiming you know the football players were reacting to her attempts to hitch herself to their “glory”. While I agree that there is fault on all sides, and that the true story is hardly as simplistic as that portrayed in the media, all your comments do is create a third” side that is even more at fault.
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First, no one said she gets a pass. Where do you see that? Second, how is she not being held to the same “justice”? She is not punishable while the boys are because her behaviour, while possibly stupid and socially questionable, was not a crime. Theirs was. So guess what. They are held criminally liable for their actions, which were criminal, and she is not, because hers, um, weren’t.
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And here you make perfectly clear that you simply don’t know what you’re talking about, a complete ignorance of the facts that should have led to some reticence on your part. In particular, as this case was heard in juvenile court, their records are sealed, and will be cleared upon reaching 21. Their lives are no more ruined than hers.
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I don’t think everyone who says she’s been raped has been, and there are some really bad cases. This is not one of them.
The issue didn’t arise when the girl up and announced she had been groped. the boys in question may have had a perfectly clean record, but they provided all of the certain evidence themselves – they photographed and videoed themselves doing everything. What happened wasn’t the question in this case (for a change).
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“Can you honestly say that teaching not to get raped is more effective than teaching not to rape?”
Can you honestly say that teaching not to be hit by a car is more effective than teaching not to hit people with cars?
It’s a meaningless question where the answer doesn’t matter.
People shouldn’t rape, or hit other people with cars. We teach people that is not okay, and punish them if they do it.
But we don’t delude ourselves that telling people not to commit crimes is sufficient, and we also teach children to look both ways before they cross a road. Doesn’t mean a car can’t plough through their schoolyard during a field day, but it does lower their risk.
It is similarly both reasonable and prudent to teach people how to lower their risk of being raped, completely separately from efforts to make rape (and every other crime) not happen.
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if a man gets drunk, he is fully responsible for what he does while drunk, and not any more responsible for what is done to him than he is when sober.
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First of all, she was not raped. They really need a new word for what happened to her. But I don’t blame her – I blame the adults who let this happen. My god, what did anyone expect would happen? She gets wasted, hits on some teenage football jocks who are also wasted, goes off with them willingly – and alone – and participates in some light sex-play and then passes out. She is lucky that what happened to her wasn’t worse. Yet they are responsible for their behavior and she is not.
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This doesn’t even make sense and even if it did, how would a ‘drunken whore’ registry even work. ” Oh, she’s been drunk before and her ex called her a whore….better stay away.” Almost anyone can get drunk or say they were drunk, and anyone can be called a whore by anyone. I’m sure you’ve heard people say it to their friend as a joke. Being a registered sex offender only happens after you are convicted of a crime in a court of law.
Yes she was drunk and in a compromising situation. Yes thy raped her. The got convicted for it. I do think our prison systems are terrible but that issue needs to be sorted out , not ignored until you find someone that you don’t want in jail.
If you were drunk and someone stole your wallet they would still be a thief and you would have still lost your wallet. Instead of money we;re talking about people, that should be worth so much more.
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I think that would be obvious. Why is there so much emphasis on her avoiding rape rather than targeting the lads’ behaviour? Perpetrators of sexual assault (and any crime, for that matter) should be targeted. Her behaviour was reckless, yes, but in no way should that justify the actions of the lads.
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Masturbation is when you do it yourself. When someone sticks their greasy hands in your vagina while you were too drunk to say anything, that’s called rape. And they very well could have injured her, she could say anything.
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No, she was raped. That’s why we have laws and lawyers and judges — they decide things like that. And in this case, that’s exactly what happened — she was raped according to the law. If trials were conducted by idiots writing blog posts and even stupider commenters deciding what is and isn’t rape, then you might be right. But you’re not.
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Are all the assholes commenting related to Todd Akin? Rape is Rape. Don’t like it, don’t stick your nasty fucking hands in a intoxicated women’s vagina. Fucktards!
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As for the definition of rape, I don’t see why it should not be considered rape if the accused only uses a finger to penetrate the victim’s body.
Since the 70s, feminists have gotten the laws changed to broadly extend the legal definition of rape to include acts that were up until then (and still are in the minds of sensible people), assaults that fell short of rape. I doubt they are done with the effort to further expand this definition. The obvious reason is that when most people hear “rape” and “rapist” they firstly (and usually lastly) think of the previous definition: violent penetration with a penis. The lack of proportionality relating the definition and punishment to the crime is a feminist feature, not a bug. It’s a cudgel to be wielded against men. Got a little drunk and had enthusiastic consensual sex with your boyfriend who’s a month younger and then get caught by your parents? It’s rape, and the law will back you up while ignoring your own crime of statutory rape of your boyfriend. See how that works?
No matter how you try to construe it, you are trying to partially blame the victim.
And what exactly is wrong with blaming the victim for actions that are blameworthy? Note that this is not blaming her for the rape but for her own poor judgment in putting herself into a dangerous situation. Note also that none of that blame in any way excuses or mitigates the boys’ responsibility or culpability for criminal acts.
Those coming to the defense of the two young men with statements like “boys will be boys” are perpetuating the idea that young men are entitled to treat “drunk whores” as toys.
Not in the least. No one is “defending” these boys or their actions and no one is saying that young men are entitled like this. The latter is either a febrile imagination of political spin.
I think JB is objecting to–as am I–the lack of proportionality in the response to the events of last August. But that said, don’t those boys deserve a defense, at least before they are convicted? Feminist doctrine say that
men“rapsists” are to be considered vile, evil, raping scum upon accusation only and, indeed, even if exonerated.LikeLike
If the woman initiated sex, whether she was under the influence or sober, she would be responsible for getting consent from her partner. That being said, consent can only be given when said freely and while sober. If a woman is passed out drunk, how can she give consent?
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I’m just not sure how that was relevant to the overall message? What I said was in response to the person who wrote this page, not as an overall guide as to how we should go about living our lives. I understand that precautions need to be taken on both sides, but the author was stating that is was also the victims fault for what happened to her. Which is not at all true.
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If she administered a “date rape drug” to herself, does that mean she should be charged with attempted self-rape?
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Judges and lawyers can call an apple a turnip as much as they want, but it doesn’t make an apple a turnip. Although many people will start seeing a turnip. If that was rape, what do you call this?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/12/2012122973834570942.html
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You can’t blame booze for goodness sake. Plenty of teenagers drink, hardly any rape.
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Very well said, Hervey!
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The fact that she gave the guy a handjob is completely irrelevant. That doesn’t mean she consented to be fingered. That’s like saying because a guy fingers a girl, the girl has the right to sodomise him.
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The author is saying that being drunk and stupid is the same as being a rapist, and it should get you put on a register.
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As are women. But I wouldn’t blame a guy if he got raped while drunk – which happens – but you seem to think it’s okay to hold a woman ‘partially responsible’ for being raped if drunk.
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They raped a girl. They filmed it. They urinated on her. They created a facebook album called ‘Rape Night’. That isn’t ‘boys being boys’.
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The false accusation rate of ‘imagined crimes against women’ is 3%. The same as any other crime. The actual conviction rate of rapists – even ones known to be guilty – is about 6%. Which is about half that of any other crime.
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Feminists or Feminazis? This case has brought out the most asinine responses from these idiots. They claim they want to change perceptions about rape (though the meaning of that is unclear because I have never seen anybody seriously condone rape), but how will they do that when they are throwing out the most ridiculous crap? I saw one tweet that said “If you walk into a bar and there is a naked woman masturbating with a beer bottle and you approach and she says no, then you walk away.”
I don’t know how anyone can take that seriously. Another catchphrase I see is “toxic masculinity.” WTF is that? I think what they are really trying to say is “All men suck” and to that I say Fuck you vapid bitches, I love my husband!
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Nobody said anything about not charging people. But considering the consequences, a rape charge is too severe for a drunken fingering episode. It’s clearly, (or should be), sexual assault.
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Three percent, has been debunked, prove that it hasn’t. If you wish to throw statistics around, lets see where you got yours from.
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I would expect a woman who tried to finger an intoxicated, passed out, whore “stud” of a man in the ass would go to jail too. This isn’t about gender, it’s about not violating people’s bodies, even if they are intoxicated.
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I think Elena meant to say “I am sick and tired of rape apologists. Go kill yourself.”
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Except that they couldn’t have been exonerated. They video taped it and put it on the internet. They very clearly committed rape. Saying that a 5 year sentence is not equivalent to the crime perpetrated is ridiculous. You are defending them by downplaying what they did. They performed a sexual act on someone who did not consent. That, friend, is rape. They should get 10 or 15 years.
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I wasn’t responding to the overall message. I was responding to what you said, which was already off the specific topic. Unless you were suggesting that the boys should have been taught not to rape and someone must have just neglected that? you appeared to be making a general statement about rape, which is what I responded to.
As I’ve said, when people stupidly take precautions, they deserve to be called stupid, but the only person ever at fault for a crime is the one who committed it.
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In this day of conviction-by-media, no one accused of a media-reported crime, whether they did it or not, and regardless of what later happens in court will be cleared at 21 or ever.
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Anything you do sexually to me against my will is rape, period, end of story. No matter how much I have drunk or what drugs are in my system, what I am am wearing, or what I have done in my past life. Period end of story. Men need to learn the my body is not their playtoy to be take out any time they wish., consent is required, and I shall never give it.
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She was absolutely raped. I don’t even know how you can argue against that.
Rape is “any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.”
Those boys stuck their fingers in her vagina without any consent on her part. That is rape.
To answer your question about that article you linked? That’s also rape. Obviously. How do you not understand that.
All rapes do not have the same amount of physical brutality. They all, however, are extremely emotionally scarring.
And the poor girl in this case will have to deal with this for the rest of her life. Seriously, what is wrong with you people? This girl is not just going to walk away from this with no problems. Being sexually assaulted is seriously traumatic.
Those boys deserve every second of jail time they get, and then some.
I don’t care if they were drunk. Do people do stupid things when they’re drunk? Yes. But someone who wouldn’t dream of taking advantage of a girl wouldn’t just do it because they’re drunk. That “impulse” or thought that that’s acceptable would have to be there already.
And do they deserve to be listed on the Sex Offenders list for the rest of their life? ABSOLUTELY.
As someone who has knowledge of the police work regarding sex offenders I can tell you that almost all offenders are REPEAT offenders. Meaning someone who has raped will very likely do so again.
I’m not saying this from a feminist point of view – as I’m sure someone will try and dismiss this post on that basis. I’m saying this as a normal, caring human being who’s sick of this bullshit. My reply would be exactly the same if it had been a male raped by either gender.
Stop trying to make the rapists the victims here.
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Reading comprehension is your friend. The “exonerated” sentence did not refer to the specific crime, but was a reference to feminist attitude toward rape in general. I’m only guilty of not overplaying what those boys did. That’s the point of proportionality. Sorry, man. Fail.
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” voluntarily accompanied two of the biggest football stars to another party, passed out and then got treated like a whore.”
These are direct words out of this article; not taken out of context. These words describe a rape.
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I have to wonder about those who say a girl who made not the wisest of decisions and made herself vulnerable deserves the violations and the humiliations she has suffered. I immediately think that if they think that is reasonable, does that mean they would, or have, done such things too? Frightens me a bit. But also makes me realize what good judgement I have had in my friends. Never at 1 party, 1 outing, or 1 booze fun-filled adventure has anyone who called themselves my friend thought to rape me in any fashion. Not even when we passed out in the same bed. Because friends don’t rape friends. ….at least, mine don’t.
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Consenting to one single act does not mean consent has been given for everything else.
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The most rationale comment on here! A clear difference
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If the roles were reversed, the male victim would’ve been laughed out of the police precinct, and would’ve been blamed for drinking too much. Male victims (they are not of course acknowledged as such) of sexual assault perpetrated by women are blamed as a matter of course.
The double standard is clear as day in the sentencing, so it is about gender, and it is up for debate. Don’t like it? Then take that up with the feminists who first declared that ‘everything is political,’ ‘the gender war is ubiquitous,’ et al.
If respected feminist universities officials are going to claim that men can gain from the experience of being falsely accused of rape with impunity, then anonymous bloggers have every damned right to question this obvious application of a gender-biased double standard in sexual assault law.
Seriously, admit it; if it were a passed out guy who was molested by a drunken girl, you wouldn’t give a damn.
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And if a woman grabs a man’s penis against his will, is that rape? No, of course not. You have to have a vagina to be a victim, right?
Now, I get that women supporting one-sided definitions of rape and sexual assault are trying to ‘look out for women.’ But if that’s all it’s about, just looking out for your own group, then how can they honestly expect every man to give a damn. How can you honestly expect you ‘Other’ to give preferential concern to your rights? You can’t declare war on someone and then expect them to build your ramparts for you.
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That’s a lot of intellectual hypocrisy. So if the lesbonazi try to further expanding the concept of rape to enclose also kisses, we will all go to jail for kissing women?
On the other hand, if they pass a law where I can lower a woman’s pants and fuck her pussy until satisfied, despite her protestations, and this is NOT legally considered rape, are we still going to have all these assholes here defending this stance of “it’s what the Law dictates”?
Since women won’t be held accountable for their acts if they are smashed, while men will be accountable by both, here is what men should do. If some of the girls get smashed and you are the host of the party, kick them out. If they are the host, leave the party yourself. If you want to drink and have some fun with women, hire some honest sex workers, as they don’t need to drown their scruples in alcohol to behave like sluts (it’s their job, after all) and won’t cry rape rape to escape the ‘cheap whore’ reputation.
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Bull. I could just as easily say “In this day of over-saturated media coverage, the entire nation will have moved on by next week. By the time these boys have their next birthday, let alone 21, no one will remember their names. And I’d FTMP be right.
More importantly, this article is about balance, balance between what happened to the girl vs what happened to the boys, balance between the crime and the punishment. In this case their is perfect balance, because just as memories will fade as to the boy’s identity, so too will it fade as to her. By the end of the summer, she could walk right up to you on a street in Steubenville, even tell you your name, and it probably wouldn’t trigger any response.
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The British Crown Prosecution Service. Who debunked the 3% statistic? Judgybitch?
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I understand what you’re saying, that doesn’t have to be the only use for the word “exonerated”.
Feminist “doctrine”, as you call it, says nothing of the sort about men (as you implied with cross out), nor is there any real feminist doctrine. The point is that we, as men, can’t truly empathize with the victim on this. We don’t know what it’s like to be a member of a binary gender group oppressed by the other binary gender group for all of history, and what that means to be violated physically in said situation. These boys cannot possibly be exonerated (found innocent, excused, etc.) when they published the evidence themselves. This whole idea makes me nauseated.
And, generally speaking, it doesn’t matter what a rape victim was doing or how they were acting, it is no less rape. Give ’em another twenty years, maybe, MAYBE, it would be fair.
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Actually
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Rule 1 to not being on a sex offenders register and having your life ruined – don’t rape anyone. Not when they are drunk, not when they are saying no, not when they are terrified, not when they are passed out, not even when they are ‘dressed like a tart’ or ‘wanting it’. 100% of responsibility is on men.
I am a male, I am not on a sex offenders register. Why? Because I don’t do any of the above actions. It is a very simple choice.
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Thank you, Nick. Not very many men “get it”. If feminism has changed the previous way of thinking legally about rape then masculism is responsible for the centuries of victim – blaming that women have had to endure…so have children of both sexes by the way. Why? Because rape is a crime of power not a crime of sex.
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Proving my point that many people will actually start seeing the apple as a turnip if they are told enough times by people in authority that an apple is a turnip.
I am not making the boys out to be victims. They were total a-holes and should have been better than that. The girl should have been taught that she doesn’t get wasted and go off alone with a bunch of boys also drunk. She was let down by her friends and the adults in her life. The boys should have been taught that no matter what went on or what the girl consented to, you keep your f-ing hands off a drunk or passed out girl, except to help her.
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I understand what you’re saying
Apparently not, since I never said anything about exonerating the two young men in this case. Yet you continue to whinge on about it.
And no “real feminist doctrine” that holds men guilty at the mere accusation of rape? Get real. It’s the entire basis for the made-up “fact” that half of all rapes go unreported. See also the SCUM manifesto.
Men and women are not “binary gender groups,” whatever the fuck that is. Men and women are people, human beings. Well, except mayby to the feminists, and their lapdogs.
So, Nic, what’s it to be? Initially you said these boys should get 10 or 15 years in prison, now it’s 20. How about castrating them. Or just take ’em out back and shoot them. Personally I would like to return to the days when we meted out justice by rational though rather than feeeeelings…
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I liked this.
Even I was thinking with a bias towards the males that would make them ok to commit crime because they were drunk. I was wrong.
She was drunk and was not assaulting anybody.
She might have had insecurity issues and thus didn’t have friends. But that didn’t make her go drunk and kill those who rejected her friendship.
Arguments can go on and on if we hypothesize what could have happened, but they didn’t.
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True Story:
A female client of mine whom I became quit close to opened up to me about her financial difficulties and how in times of real need she turned to “prostitution light” in the form of “event escorting” and “massage”.
Sometimes her clients were much older men who just wanted to enjoy a nice dinner and evening out with a young woman, sometimes her clients expected “happy endings” to their massages, and on some occasions, if the man didn’t totally revolt her, she would go even further and have sexual intercourse.
She said to me, “The only time in my life when I actually made a lot of money and had considerable disposable income was during the 6 months I did this. Nobody can tell me how great and noble men are anymore. I see them for what they really are. No more illusions! I see how willing even the most seemingly normal man is to pay for sex and to request certain sexual acts. My romantic delusions and fantasies have been shot to hell!”
I was thinking, “and what does it say about seemingly ‘normal’ women like yourself who are willing to pimp themselves out!”
Somehow that went lost on her.
Ironically enough she still sees herself as a “good catch”.
You see, her 6 months of ho-ing was just a “temp job” during an otherwise un-employed stint. Now she’s got a normal job and is totally over it. Even though she’s a licensed massage therapist she refuses to work as such in the off event that some guy patronizing a legitimate spa might proposition for happy ending. She wants no more to do with that and is looking for a sincere mate.
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In addition to the above we were go
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And of course, they are not at all collaborating with the feminist establishment who have been pushing various forms of this false statistic for years. Every legal system in the western world, is influenced by feminist dogma which paints all males as inherently criminal and it’s obvious. No credibility to be found there, regarding this, sorry.
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The it behooves males to steer plenty clear of drunk or high chicks. Let the message ring out across the lands that men will no longer be giving any type of attention, positive or negative, to chicks who abuse substances.
That should serve to subside not only rapes and assaults but accusations of such which might be false and which could harm said males. It would also serve to curb the drinking and drugging of many females who sometimes engage in such behavior in order to garner attention from favored males.
Win/win!
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If you are that paranoid then there is very little point in debating with you.
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As with women taking precautions, don’t forget that you have lowered your risk, not eliminated it. The next time you have consensual sex, the girl could regret it and declare retroactive rape and bad luck could put you on that list. It’s still worth lowering your risk, just as girls who don’t put themselves in sketchy situations are a at a much lower risk of rape, but you can’t eliminate it any more than a woman can.
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the name ring a bell, maybe not. But when you hire people, do you not google?
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Feminists have been talking about rape that way for a while, and it had some validity back when ‘rape’ was defined as a violent forcible act of penis-entering-vagina sex.
If you are going to redefine rape to include lack of consent due to inability rather than a genuine attempt to fight back, and next-day regret, and sexual assaults and all that, the ‘rape is an act of violence and power’ thing disappears.
A guy who has sex with a drunk girl is in it for the sex.
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I don’t have any problem with underage drinking.
But I do think it’s ridiculous that society encourages drinking at all, and getting drunk especially. Why are teens expected to not do what adults do all the time? It’s not like people in their twenties are any less stupid while drunk.
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Feminism, being an influence on the legal system and teaching a dehumanizing mentality towards male citizens, is not paranoia, (primary aggressor laws in the face of reported parity in DV and higher levels of battery from women, is but one piece of evidence, there are many more, such as longer sentences for men for the same crime, etc.). Your continuous personal jabs at character and lack of will to consider, observable phenomena could however, be seen as irrationality and obstinacy on your part, similar to the behavior of a feminist; in the non-consideration of issues pertaining to males and a rush to judgement. I’m attempting to determine what makes sense and you’re merely taking jabs and regurgitating untrustworthy statistics.
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You don’t get “on that list” by accusation. You must be tried and convicted. So if sex was consensual, there will be no evidence to convict you. It’s that easy.
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I’d say that’s sexual assault, yes. Touching or fondling someone else’s genitals without their consent is sexual assault. Period. I don’t care if they’re drunk or not, if it’s a man or a woman, or any of that. It’s sexual assault.
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I think you’re wrong about that Bob. Rape is not something that “stupid highschool/college jocks” do. I don’t know why jocks get such a bad rap but they are normal people too. Only rapists rape. Non-rapists do not rape. Rape is a pathology of the criminal sociopath/psychopath and they are fortunately small in number in any society. That is why on the rare occasion when rapes like The Steubenville case happen, they must be dealt with harshly. Its not normal humans we’re dealing with, its the socio and psychopaths of society. Can their pathology be reversed? I don’t know. They are so far beyond the normal spectrum of human behavior that it might be best to isolate them from the larger society for life.
Its a good thing these two were caught young and right after their first rape. Left unchecked we’d be dealing with a lot more crimes than just this one.
And no, they are absolutely not representative of jocks, atheletes and sportsmen.
Surely you don’t think atheletes suffer from the pathology of psychopathy, do you? On what evidence would you base this belief?
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Years ago I owned a taxi and ended working for an escort service. Many of the men just wanted to talk, watch TV or go on a date. Some were disabled in some way or another and had to pay for a woman since the were undateable. Some of perverts had to pay. What I found overwhelmingly is that I had more respect for the men – and pity for the undateables – than I had had for the whores, who were drug addicts, narcissists and mercenaries.
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“They deserve 10 years in prison.”
Riiiight. Ruin the lives of two stupid boys not over rape, but sexual assault.
How long should a woman serve because of a false rape accusation?
When a stupid girl gets slobbering passed drunk and accompanies two stupid teenage jocks around, what do you think is going to happen? I mean in the real world, not in the fantasy world of feminists babbling, “Men should learn not to objectify women!”
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“Surely you don’t think atheletes suffer from the pathology of psychopathy, do you? On what evidence would you base this belief?”
Extrovert vs. introvert. Low IQ extroverts make up almost all prisoners. Many athletes are low-IQ extroverts. High-IQ extroverts become politicians, i.e., war-starting mass murderers. One of the reasons is that extroverts act before they think.
Pareto’s Law tells us that 80% of the population are extroverts. Twenty percent are introverts and we are responsible for almost all the good in the world. Unfortunately, we are outgunned by dumbass extrovert Herd/Ant/Sheeple/Borg.
That girl and those two boys were drunken stupid extroverts. That’s why I call it When Morons Collide. The same thing happened with George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin. I could have been watching it from a distance and predicted what would happen.
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Could you please provide a source to where you found that Ohio considers any penetration as rape? I’m currently fighting with the feminist/social justice crowd on tumblr and forgot look for the article or document that said this. Thank you.
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http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907.02
It appears that Ohio uses the words “sexual conduct”.
Any penetration of any kind is the FBI definition.
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Wow, what a long comment section, you really hit a nerve there.
While I don’t know much about this case, I know one thing – people should be held responsible for everything they do while drunk, as if they were sober. That means if you did something while drunk, not remembering it doesn’t make you less responsible. However, it seems feminists would rather hold the man responsible, but not the woman. If she had sex and didn’t remember it, she was “raped”.
If we took this logic to its rightful conclusion, all drinking and fucking people you don’t know too well should really be outlawed. It’s too dangerous – it’s like drunk driving! It holds so much potential danger (feeling raped afterwards, and jailtime), that the police better start fining people for it.
(I know it’s kind of off topic and doesn’t relate to the case. But people were arguing about how responsible drunk people really are, and I say they are).
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You have no way of knowing who was intro or extroverted in this case. All extroverts are not low IQ, all introverts are not high IQ. Teenage parties are not comprised of all extroverts, nor do all teenage introverts refrain from drinking alcohol. All atheletes are not extroverts either. NFL player Ricky Williams struggled with social anxiety and shyness throughout his career and there are several others.
You are making sweeping generalizations that have no empirical basis.
Aside from that, whether these young men were extrovert or not, low IQ or not, their criminal behavior is pathologically socio-psychopathic and it is not on the spectrum of normal human behavior, for either extro or introverts, low, medium or high IQ.
This is why instead of trying to brush it off as “normal stupid male jock behavior” it must be dealt with for what it is: abnormal criminal behavior.
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Tell that to Brian Banks, or anybody on http://www.cotwa.info/
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I honestly can’t comment on the case. It seems like a whole bunch of f-d up mess.
That being said, what I find most unnerving is living in a society that’s constantly spouting this retarded belief that other people, who have no investment in you what-so-ever, should actually give a damn about your well-being. Always pretending like evil doesn’t exist and then having fucking heart-attacks when it rears its head, and going into fucking uproars when people try to tell you how to avoid it.
It’s fucking scary. I didn’t realize evil people were supposed to be obvious to spot. I kind of thought, I dunno, they looked like everybody else and thus you should WATCH YOUR OWN BACK.
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if you pass out and someone stabs you – it was suicide. seems legit.
‘one night of acting badly . .. ‘ bahahahahahahaha – love how you can assume the girl has done this countless times but the boys ain’t never done anything like this before.
i have compassion for the boys as well – because the adults in their world were more interested in having a football win than treating them like humans and as a result their world view was skewed.
i feel compassion for them because alcohol makes for bad decisions especially in the adolescent brain. of course it’s interesting that you think alcohol was the main root of their decision making but seeking a powerful male was the basis of hers.
you left one thing out of your anti-feminist script. one of the boys fathers said he felt bad that he wasn’t around more – if you’re gonna tow the neo-misogynist line you need a paragraph in here about how his mother was probably an alimony/child support whore that pushed him out the kids life and that boys without fathers inherently make bad decisions because mothers can’t be trusted to raise them properly especially is said mother couldn’t keep her man to begin with. gotta hit the whole checklist if you want to make it into the boys’ club.
cool graphic btw
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well, i can’t speak for monika – but i would give a damn.
just as i give a damn when a boy is raped by his teacher. and you know who argues the most against me on that? men.
“ha, ha ha . . i wish i had those kinds of teachers when i was a kid . . . ha ha ha”
not admitting that is as disingenuous on your part as it would be on mine to not admit that women, feminist or no, still fairly universally believe men should pay on a date.
part of the problem with all of this is the gender assumptions. if a girl molested a passed out guy most people wouldn’t take issue with that because “guys always want sex”
but the assumption that men always want it and wherever they can get it – is perpetuated as much if not more by other men.
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EXACTLY! thank you! the idea that if a woman/girl passes out – well, what’s a guy to do except use her like a toy?? i’ve known complete a-holes that i still wouldn’t accuse of such a mindset
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I have compassion for the boys too. Not because what they did wasn’t rape or reprehensible. But because our laws are designed to punish children as if they were adults.
When children we don’t know or identify with commit crimes we are happy to lock them up for life or even execute them. When we can identify with them (like the convicted teens in this case) we plead that they are misguided, confused and deserving of a break.
I am surprised that I haven’t heard many voices querying the legal system with its regular incarceration of children in adult facilities. These boys will go to a juvenile institution (and rightfully) but I still wonder why their names will remain on a sex-offenders list for life.
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“These boys will go to a juvenile institution (and rightfully) but I still wonder why their names will remain on a sex-offenders list for life.”
Their names won’t be on a list for life, Local Bond.
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Long comment thread, didn’t read it all. But I wanted to say, I think we need to look at how we define rape, and why it’s a crime. Firstly, it has to do with general consent, yeah? If someone pushes you against your will, it’s assault, if they do something sexual to you against your will it’s sexual assault. But in the first case, we presume consent. If someone carries you drunk from a party while you’re passed out, you don’t generally sue them for assault and kidnapping, whereas if they touch you up, you can have them convicted as a sex offender. So why?
Well, sex is supposed to be special. It can be good, and amazing, and emotionally uplifting…but when it’s bad, it can be a whole lot worse than physical assault. That’s two ends of a pretty large spectrum though.
Lets go back to the case where someone carries you, drunk, from a party. Lets say they too are drunk, and they drop you. You might get some bruises, might even break something if you’re unlucky. Then you might sue. But if you wake up with no memories and no pain, that’s no problem, right? So why should it be different with sexual assault? If I woke up after a party in no pain and no memories, I would have no problem with someone having touched me up – after all, it wouldn’t have harmed me, right?
So what was different in the case discussed above? The media. The damage wasn’t to the girl (she didn’t contract any infections, nor was she hurt as far as we know), but to her image. She wasn’t harmed by being fingered, but by people knowing she got blind drunk with strange guys who took advantage of her.
And that’s why I think this case isn’t rape. That’s why I don’t think lots of ‘rapes’ men are convicted for are truly rape, because often (despite the fact that sex is seen as ‘special’ and outside the realm of normal logic) there’s no harm done. And a rape conviction does a hell of a lot more harm to the guy than the sexual assault itself. I’m sure lots of people will disagree, but I don’t think someone’s feelings about their reputation should be put on a par with other people’s entire futures. Rape convictions do more damage than rape. That’s why lots of women don’t report it, because really, most women are more just than the law.
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“Only rapists rape. Non-rapists do not rape. Rape is a pathology of the criminal sociopath/psychopath and they are fortunately small in number in any society.”
This, I must disagree with. I have been sexually assaulted twice now, while fully sober (though once I started off asleep), and both guys were totally normal individuals. Not pathological, just selfish. They just had a moment of wanting to get their way, and thinking they could get away with it. And they could. I’m not going to wreck someone’s life prospects just because my poor body was violated. I wasn’t damaged physically, and emotionally they could have done more harm in any number of non-sexual ways, if they wanted to. Don’t pretend rape is some big awful monstrosity that it isn’t, it’s a crime like any other, and just as not all thefts are committed by kleptomaniacs, not all rapes are committed by madmen.
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That is actually quite reassuring to know, thank you for the information. I found more here:
http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/03/steubenville-rapists-wont-be-labeled-for-life.html
So, that leaves us very little reason to feel any sympathy for these teen rapists. Let’s hope they learn that it is never ok to have sex with someone that isn’t a willing participant.
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If the guy was giving blow jobs and hand jobs just minutes before he passed out then no….I don’t think he would have any right to complain.
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You fail to address the fact the boys were also terribly drunk and just as unable to make rational decisons. She was talking during the fingering so I’m not sure if in their drunken stupor they thought they were doing anything wrong. If they had not consumed alcohol, this would never have happened.
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With amphetamines, MDMA, cannabis and cocaine, the intent is to alter the victim’s judgement, increase sexual arousal and cause general disinhibition.
But none of those things make something a date rape drug. A ‘date rape drug’ means it does one of two functions:
1) Makes the victim incapable of fighting back, by inducing paralysis, inability to move your arms and legs on command, knocking you unconscious, etc.
OR
2) Interferes with your brain’s ability to create new long term memories, meaning that while you get a perfectly good look at your attacker while it’s going on, you are biologically incapable of remembering anything that happened while on it. (I.e. The Hangover – they knew what was going on at the time, but couldn’t remember anything the next morning.)
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What a total load of nonsense. Rape is unwanted sexual intercourse, and any drug that facilitates that is a rape drug. Therefore any drug that alters ones judgement and makes you do something you otherwise wouldn’t, or disables your ability to make that decision yourself, and which you had no hand in administering is a rape drug.
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Yes, because whenever someone writes something like this it automatically likely that said writer is male. No “she” isn’t, why do you think the website is called judgybitch.com, it’s because the person who writes all of this a woman. And when I see you took the awesome liberty of making assumptions in your post without using any evidence from this article. No where did this writer ever say that the boys should be excused for what they did.
And this isn’t about rape, it’s about punishing one party for their actions while excusing the actions of the other just because of gender, which in of itself is sexist. The “victim” in this little fiasco went to a high school football party where in a town football is basically a god all of its own with no adult supervision. What do you think was going to happen? You think they were going to get out their twister and monopoly board sets and drink sweet tea? Heck no, they’re going to grab enough alcohol for an Irish family reunion and party till the sun comes up three days later. If you’re an attractive woman and you decide to get hammered at a party full of high school football players what you think will happen? Heck, I’ll bet my life that the party where this “victim” went to had more sexual encounters besides hers. And this isn’t even rape, if they’d forcibly held her down and then penetrated her then yes it would be rape, but instead she got passed out drunk and then they took videos of her getting fingered. I’m not excusing the victims actions, shame on them, but the “justice” meted out in this case have destroyed the lives of two boys who probably wouldn’t done what they did if they were sober while completely excusing the actions of the “victim” and gaining her a bunch of sympathy even though she’s partially to blame. I’m sorry but I can’t feel a lot of sympathy for anyone, male or female, who says that they were an innocent victim of a “rape” when there is a picture of them passed out drunk on a sidewalk and with evidence of them consenting to sexual acts with the “rapists” prior to said “rape” and then going on and trying to cover their own ass by lying and saying that they was drugged instead of admitting that they got drunk of their own free will. This girl may not be a whore, but she’s definitely an idiot and a liar.
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I’d like to apologize in advance for grammatical errors, I’m not very good at grammar when I’m pissed off. Can someone tell if there’s an edit button anywhere?
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Oh, and the girl had an impeccable one, did she?
The culture gives girls and women the privilege to behave as stupidly and as irresponsibly as they want to without any repercussions whatsoever in the name of “WOMEN’S LIBERATION”[Go! grrrrl]
Of course you have this very handy ” victim blaming” defense to ensure that you are a perpetual “wronged angel”.
No one seems to be concerned about under age drinking or dysfunctional parenting.
You either expect civilized behavior from both men & women or let both of them be animals and see where this ‘whatever goes’ attitude takes us.
A jungle within a civilization is an anomaly.
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STANDING OVATION !!!!
THANK YOU !
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Grrrrrrrrrrrrr ! if this isn’t blatant hypocrisy,what is ?
It’s because the culture panders to women like her it’s in the mess it finds itself.
Solipsism and narcissism are a deadly duo indeed.
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I had more respect for the men – and pity for the undateables – than I had had for the whores, who were drug addicts, narcissists and mercenaries.
But yet,somehow, MEN are pigs,cruel,evil……….. according to folklore.
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@Local Bond How come you are so naive ? An overdose of feminist bull crap is not good for your mental health.
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No, but it sure as hell suggests it.
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“…but no one I know would perpetrate a violent crime, film it, then put it on social media.”
So, what was this violent crime, and where did it occur?
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You mean, alcohol is a self-imbibed date-rape drug, then. Unless you have evidence someone poured it down her throat, that is.
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“On the other hand, I said, since when was anyone of any age raping anyone just a “kid mistake”? ”
So you’re saying that since no one was raped the night in question, no mistakes were made?
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“No, she was raped. That’s why we have laws and lawyers and judges — they decide things like that”
They decided things like that were rape only within the last few years. If you want to abrogate your moral responsibilities to some guys who won a few more votes than other guys and in order to do so changed some legal definitions (which you’re now buying into because it’s convenient), you’re a moral coward.
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She was “talking during”?
So… why is anyone assuming she didn’t consent?
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“The point is that we, as men, can’t truly empathize with the victim on this. We don’t know what it’s like to be a member of a binary gender group oppressed by the other binary gender group for all of history, and what that means to be violated physically in said situation.”
Black men in the United States certainly know, you self-obsessed moron.
And, no, your paragraph does not describe women at the hands of men. Your paranoia and awareness of only a small part of history absolutely reeks. You hallucination of a patriarchy is a pathetic, sick attempt to paint all men as veritable sociopaths bent on the degradation and exploitation of women.
How do you live with yourself?
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“Anything you do sexually to me against my will is rape, period, end of story.”
Are you always this hysterically confused?
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You’ve locked up your spot on the False Rape Accusation Registry.
Scumbag.
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The day you write your first post defending male victims is the day I’ll start paying attention to anything you say.
Face it, you don’t give a shit about most victims of violent crimes, and about half the victims of sexual assault.
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You said it… its similar to when a teacher pushes or restrains a student and this is called “assault”. These kinds of laws are designed to make men criminals at the whim of a slut/ bitch, making almost any kind of behaviour criminal ( next on the feminazi list wld be indecent assault by gazing upon a woman ) .
These spoilt fascists need to live in a third world country for 6 months so they can clear their brainwashed heads and realise what real violence is.
Meantime men need to go on strike with most American women . When groupies see men turn around and ignore them, maybe laws will change.
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When i was 10 or so, a friends father who was helping me with a food stain started trying to masturbate me…. i didnt get hard and wasnt enthused, so he stopped.
Didnt get traumatized by this in the least… just woke me up to the fact that some men like boys.
we need to stop this fascist/ puritan witchhunt that always seems to target men.
I also know a guy who’s female schoolteacher slept with him when he was 15 . Not traumatized either.
The first step men can take is say ” this is bullshit.. a real rape involves black eyes etc”
Let them know you think they are full of shit, even if you do get convicted.
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You miz bitchface are a condescending cunt.
She is not a herd lemming like you , and other brain dead lefties who have taken resentment studies and have large parts of their brain removed .
Thus she is not interested in being in the ” boys club”. She has her own opinions.
Try being ravished by a manly man to get rid of all that bitterness you have. Btw
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I think you’re one of the smarter people I’ve read and I wish it were fair to hold the average woman to account for her actions but I just don’t see how it can be done.
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