Alpha, beta, dickhead. Is there some middle ground? Help me out here.

10 Jun


I have a general notion of what the words “alpha” and “beta” mean when applied to men, but I will confess my understanding is pretty rudimentary.  All too often, when I read stuff about “game” and how to deal with women, I’m left with the feeling that gamers are really just assholes, playing into the “chicks dig jerks” mentality.

Here is the ever charming Heartiste, advising men on how to walk the line between alpha and beta, and I have to say, the hypothetical man he creates sounds like an immature fratboy.  I think his advice is much better deployed in the sift and winnow process:  don’t be a jerk, and don’t date women who dig jerks.

Let’s take a look.

Here are some common Acts of Beta refitted so that they’re executed with an alpha attitude.


Gift giving

Don’t buy something for her at the moment she’s leering at her object of acquisition. This is what men who are happy to support golddiggers do. Buying her stuff when she most expects it will only increase her demands for more stuff. It’s better to keep your gift-giving spontaneous, cheap and thoughtful. Flowers left on the table for her when she gets home. A small, goofy poem tucked into the clutter of her nightstand. For added effect, act at first like you don’t know who got her the gift. Inquire if it was her secret lover, and threaten to one-up “him” by buying her a yacht. Don’t get carried away with “special occasions”. One gift and done for birthdays and anniversaries. Keep her expectations low, and it will always be a challenge to disappoint her.


Okay, part of this advice is okay.  Flowers and poems are very sweet, thoughtful gifts.


True story:  I once asked Mr. JB for a sonnet for Christmas.  It has clear metrics, a rhyme scheme that is easy to parse, and it seemed like a good fit with his personality.  I wasn’t expecting anything of Shakespearian caliber, but I figured he could manage it.

Well, he did.

And it was all about how awesome he is, and how lucky I am to have him.


Oops.  Forgot to specify that the sonnet was supposed to be about me!  And that was the end of poetry in our relationship.

Okay, back to Heartiste.  What is up with this “pretend it’s from her secret lover” bullshit?  It’s like an expectation of infidelity, and reeks of insecurity and jealousy.  It’s childish and stupid, and I’m glad Mr. JB has never done anything like this to me.  And refusing to buy expensive gifts because it will only increase her expectations and make her greedy?

Dude, you are dating the wrong woman if she leers at “objects of acquisition”.  Being totally into stuff is a bad sign for a meaningful, long term relationship.  A woman who really cares about “stuff” is likely very superficial, vain, materialistic and why would you want to be with someone like that?


It’s okay to like nice things, and to have expensive things.  I love my posh yoga pants.  I have three pairs.  I love my Coach purse.  I have one, and it’s the only purse I own.  I love my UGG boots.  I have one pair.  I don’t wear high heels and cannot imagine spending $1000 on a pair of Louboutins. I have a weakness for books, I admit, but I also make prodigious use of the library. I adore Chanel No. 5, but I wear it sparingly.

All of those things were gifts from my husband.


Every man, no doubt, has his limits for how much stuff is acceptable.  What matters is how much your woman CARES about that shit.  A woman who has 300 pairs of shoes and a house stuffed to the rafters doesn’t need to be managed.  She needs to be cut loose.  Keeping her expectations low is not the answer.  Unless of course, those low expectations are the reason she’s dating you!

Making entertainment decisions

Ok, so she chooses a chick flick. This is not the worst thing in the world. With a little forethought, you can persuade her to choose a movie less vomit-inducing. Pre-empt her suggestions and take the lead in guiding her choice: “This is going to take a lot out of me, but I’m willing to watch a girly movie with you tonight, as long as I get a say in the matter.” She’ll feel bad about putting you through torture, so she’ll be more open to watching the less obnoxiously sappy chick flics, like Seven.


Meh.  Mr.JB thinks Airplane and any movie starring Will Ferrell is hilarious.  I think they’re stupid.  I’m in a swoon over period costume drama. He finds Mr. Darcy with his giant fortune and frilly blouse ridiculous.  We don’t subject each other to torture.


If your girlfriend is willing to force you to sit through something she knows you hate, well, that doesn’t say too much about her, does it?  The solution isn’t to make her sit through something she hates, either.  Go to different movies.  Meet in the lobby.  Find a movie you both love.  Make movies something you do with friends.  There are lots of solutions that don’t involve making the other person feel rotten.

The point here is that you don’t deliberately and manipulatively force the other person to accommodate you, when you damn well know they will not enjoy the experience.  What is the point of that?  And how will that play out in the long-run?  A relationship based on subterfuge is not going to end well.

Doing things together


The worst thing you can do is not make a bad choice, but make no choice at all. Every man will be faced with those moments when he either can’t be bothered to think of something to do with his beloved, or he really can’t come up with any ideas. “What do you want to do?” are the most terrifying words a man will hear, next to “I missed my period” and “I had lunch with my ex.” Whatever you say, don’t sound wishy-washy. Even if your idea sucks, it’s better to forcefully present a sucky idea than to waver and say you’ll do whatever she wants to do. Now, this doesn’t mean you don’t get any input from her. It means you offer a suggestion, and be flexible if she makes a counter-suggestion.

This is much better.  Offer a suggestion and be flexible.  No argument from me.

Shopping together


If you get that expectant “Will you buy this for me?” look from your woman, muse thoughtfully about the product, and then announce it would look great on your mistress. Ask your girlfriend/wife if it comes with a motorcycle. Wait a few months, and then buy it for her. The object here is to never get caught being the type of man that asks “How high?” when his woman wants him to jump.

Announce it would look great on your mistress?!?!?!

What a dickish thing to say.  Really?  You want a woman who accepts that level of rudeness?  Who has so little self-respect that she will tolerate you being a complete douchebag?  Try not being a douchebag.

Again, if you are dealing with a very “stuff” oriented woman, who sees you as a means to satisfy her material goals, why are you in the relationship?

Making it rain


If you’re going to spend beaucoup bucks on your girl, (and you’re a well-off man for whom the expenditure is inconsequential), don’t get her “stuff.” Buy her experiences instead. Two plane tickets to a European city will be appreciated more fondly than a thousand pieces of jewelry.

Beaucoup bucks is a relative term, although I agree with the sentiment.  If you have $20 to spend, a fabulous bottle of wine and a loaf of French bread and two perfect apples on a picnic blanket by the river is way better than “stuff”, because it takes so much more thought and effort than just plunking down your cash at a store.


This should be completely mutual, too.  If the game here is to satisfy her expectations without reciprocal action, you are with a drama queen who needs to be at the center of the narrative, and that is not a good thing.

The crying game


Every so often a girl just needs a good cry. Maybe she had a bad day at work, her parents are bugging her, or she got a shitty haircut. Let her tumble into your arms to sob it out. And, though this won’t need saying for the more experienced men in the audience, don’t say anything. Over and over, I’ve rediscovered the power of keeping your trap shut when a woman is in the midst of an emotional draining. Hug, stroke, and silently sympathize. That’s all you need to do.


Agree 100%.  I’m not prone to emotional outbursts, although the Red Wedding absolutely killed me.  Even though I’ve read the books, and I knew it was coming, the death of Catelyn Stark had me sobbing.  My husband did the hug and stroke and sympathize thing, but only because what else could he do?  It’s a fictional character!

red wedding

He usually goes in to management mode and starts offering solutions and I have to tell him to please shut up and just let me get it out.  And of course, the inverse is true, too.  When he has an emotionally upsetting day, and comes to me, I hug him and sympathize and then he looks at me and says, “well, are you going to help me with this or not?”.

He wants solutions. I want sympathy.  We do our best to meet each other’s needs, even though they’re different.


When she says annoying or stupid shit


Follow the 80/20 rule. 80% of the time, ignore her or change the subject. 20% of the time, call her out on her bullshit.

Ignore her? Change the subject?  Again, what kind of woman accepts a relationship in which she gets ignored or derailed 80% of the time? Okay, that’s not quite fair, and I suppose it depends on how OFTEN she says annoying or stupid shit, but if it’s frequent, the ignoring strategy is just being a dick.

Why would you want a relationship with someone who is annoying or stupid? This sounds like a strategy for managing contempt.  I can imagine a lot of eye rolls, which happen to be a great predictor of shitty relationships.

eye rolls

Compliments and flattery


Keep it rare, spare and unawares. The best compliments are unexpected, and evenly divided between being romantic and raunchy.

Uhm, no.  Find something to thank or compliment your partner on EVERY day.  That will keep you focused on all her wonderful qualities, and if you can’t find anything nice to say, you should probably be looking for a woman with qualities you admire.


Compliments and flattery, when genuine, are food for love.  Starving your girlfriend of acknowledgement just for the sake of it is a really jerky thing to do.  What is the point?  False flattery is also insulting, but I can’t understand not wanting to show the woman in your life that you admire and love her and really appreciate her ass.




Don’t bother. Women are constitutionally incapable of receiving advice in good faith without twisting it into an attack on their character or attractiveness. Either lead her to what you want her to do, or let her flounder on her own.

Oh, boy. If you are with a woman who cannot take advice, you need to lace up your shoes and RUN!  There is no hope for this relationship at all.  The whole point of marriage and relationships is to be there for one another in “good faith”.

Basically, this advice amounts to “my way or the highway”, and it’s a total dick move.  What happened to even if your idea sucks, it’s better to forcefully present a sucky idea than to waver and say you’ll do whatever she wants to do. Now, this doesn’t mean you don’t get any input from her. It means you offer a suggestion, and be flexible if she makes a counter-suggestion.

Conversational fluff


Expect that in any relationship, she will be doing 75% of the talking, and you will be doing 75% of the head nodding. If you don’t like this, you should be dating a man.


Ha!  I have an outlier then.  Mr. JB is Chatty Cathy in a man’s body.  He talks non-stop, from the moment his feet hit the floor in the morning til he hits the sack at night.  His job is talking.  He gets paid to talk and he never grows tired of it.

I think introversion and extroversion are pretty evenly distributed between the sexes, and again, this idea that women natter and men nod is very contemptuous.

Why would you want to be in a relationship with someone who’s conversation you define as “fluff”?  Go find someone you actually LIKE talking, or LISTENING to.

When things get really frustrating


Leave. It works wonders. Slip out the back, Jack. Return in a few hours, after she’s had time to think clearly about the rift her bad behavior is causing.

Or, you know, think about the rift you being such a colossal asshole is causing.

If she fattens up


Dump her. Seriously. You are staring down the barrel of decades of unsatisfactory sex and resentful withdrawal. If you truly deeply love her, the best persuasion is leading by example. Exercise more, get buff, draw attention from other women, flirt with other women, and, if you are really fucking subversive, buy her a dress in the size she was before she got chubby.


Cruel, but true.  However….

DO NOT BUY HER A DRESS IN A SIZE SHE WAS BEFORE.  That is mean.  It will make her feel incredibly shitty and ashamed.  Fat people know they’re fat.  Women, especially, know when they have put on weight.  If it’s dealbreaker, and I think it’s completely understandable that it IS a dealbreaker, then move on.

Don’t be a fucking jerk about it.  Just move on.


Maintaining mystery


The toughest thing for any man is staying mysterious for his woman. The more a woman knows about her man, the less excited she feels about him. An easy way to inspire wonderment is to stay late at work a few nights, unannounced. Another way is the calculated revelation: “Oh, I thought I told you I was a local karaoke legend?” Be more unpredictable. Try speaking in a fashion that avoids your most common tropes and semantics. Radically change your style of dress. Join a club. Attend a seminar. Anything to shake up the monotony.

What?!?!  Are you serious?

Stay late at work without telling her?  Why? That’s pretty inconsiderate.  And what does “be unpredictable” mean?  You’re going to up and gamble the down payment on the house?

There is a huge, huge difference between being dependable and reliable and solid, and being boring and uninspiring. There is a very easy way to maintain your “mystery”, which is just another way of saying that you still interest her.

Read. Cultivate your mind.  Learn new things.  Explore the world.  Grow. In whatever way interests you.  You don’t need to change your speech patterns or your wardrobe.  Those are such superficial things anyway.


You stay interesting by actually being interesting.  It works that way for everyone, in fact.



Make a small effort to not fall asleep after sex one in a while. Cuddle. Under no circumstances should you be the little spoon, unless you’re being a clown about it.


Awww.  Being the little spoon can be so much fun.


And don’t be a clown.


Clowns are scary!

Lots of love,


300 Responses to “Alpha, beta, dickhead. Is there some middle ground? Help me out here.”

  1. TMG June 10, 2013 at 15:05 #

    Good women, such as JB, have yet to process just how feral many women have become in this day and age.

    Men, unless they are famous or incredibly good-looking, HAVE to go dickwad on the women they are seeing or she loses interest/takes advantage of him. We HAVE to push for sex immediately. We HAVE to be unemotional and stoic.

    50% of the reason why I stopped dating is because I hated being a dickwad, and I hated feeling like I had to push for sex immediately. But it’s basically required this day and age, because of women’s seemingly insatiable desires for dominant males. And yes, I know “not all women are like that.” But men have to assume that the women they are seeing are the same feral hypergamous manipulative shrews he has been dealing with UNLESS she proves to be otherwise.

    What we need are for more good women like JB to speak up. Because thus far, the good women have been criminally negligent in calling out the man-haters and the feral shrews.


  2. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 15:21 #

    Alphas get betas at the end of the day. Alphas have more chances of marriage. And they do. And they have children with wife. And then… they are betas. A “father” is always a beta. Parenthood is a beta condition. Especially for men. An alpha woman still alpha after motherhood. She becames a “milf”. Her womanhood and sex appeal increases. An alpha men gets kind of nerdy with fatherhood. No more wilde horse or race horse but a farm horse. All this sit coms about the “dumb dad” are totally right.
    Yes, there is an escape from the “alpha” and the “beta”: the “john”. The john gets a lot of beautiful women avoiding all the crap. And, because they are accustomed to deal with very hot women and having sex with them, they are behave very confident with the “real women” and sometimes they get one of that so called “real women”. And attractive ones. But… the “john” does not want to become a beta with that “real woman” and he always end up back with the professionals. Less drama, more fun and more CHEAP.


  3. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 15:32 #

    If you push for sex soon you are “too hungry”. LOSER!
    If you do not, and you try to have the right timing you are a “nice guy”. Therefore a… LOSER!
    If you approach, it means to expect approval from the target. You are weak. LOSER!
    If you do not approach, you are too shy. You have no balls. LOSER!
    If you go with hookers, obviously, you are a LOSER!
    If you remain in chastity you are a… guess what? a LOSER!
    If you succeed, and you marry, you have childrem, wife divorces and she takes 50% of your shit + alimony + child support = LOSER!


  4. thehumanscorch June 10, 2013 at 15:38 #

    I’m trying to figure out if JB was seriously asking the question, or just cracking wise.


  5. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 15:40 #

    No, I really am asking.

    Does alpha = asshole?

    Can you be an alpha male and not be a jerk to women at the same time, or is being a jerk part of what makes you an alpha?


  6. freetofish June 10, 2013 at 15:54 #

    Of course there is middle ground. JB, what you’re missing is that most of these “game” or PUA websites are trying to help out young men who have been brought up believing they need to be submissive to women, put them on pedestals and bow to their every whim to get their affections.

    They have been taught by feminism, media and their mothers that every woman is a Princess and they should feel thankful and grateful that they have been graced by these gentle flower’s attentions no matter how fat, slutty or horrible they are.

    The flip side of this though is how many articles written by women do you see about “where have all the good men gone”? Really what they mean is where have all the REAL men gone. Men who are the leaders in their relationships and marriages. Men who have beliefs and convictions and stand behind them.

    These young men raised by modern feminism end up on Heartiste and web sites like that after years or decades of being the nice, accommodating push overs and never getting anything other than “your my best friend” type relationships.

    It’s over the top in many ways, but I think if it helps pushover men adjust their thinking about how they approach relationships and life in general even a little it’s a good thing.


  7. freetofish June 10, 2013 at 15:59 #

    No, alpha doesn’t mean being an asshole. But for men that don’t naturally have alpha tendencies, that is how it comes out a lot of times.

    True alphas are the guys that everyone notices and gravitate to without really doing anything overt.


  8. tarzanwannabe June 10, 2013 at 15:59 #

    Heartiste’s model provides men with equal opportunity in the mate selection process. You concur with this a few times – for one example, there’s a time to “lace up your shoes and RUN!”. This model, too, provides for self-selection, as you also acknowledge – “why would you want to be with someone like that?” His model-for-men is the anti-dote for to the unsustainable dote-on-me model-for-women so common nowadays, which is acceptable/assumed/entitled/ for women. His model would not exist without the very real presence of the former.

    As I read & enjoyed your article, and considered your declared personal exemptions to Heartiste’s ideas, one ‘lil acronym began to flash in my mind. “NAWALT”. That’s you, JB. Of course there’s truth in NAWALT. Some. You epitomize it. And now you’ve confessed it to us with this post.

    Now *that’s* a compliment! 😉 XOXO


  9. Brian June 10, 2013 at 16:02 #

    You don’t have to be an asshole just to be alpha. But in today’s dating market, it’s a necessity with 90% or more of the available women out there.

    My girlfriend is a rare exception, largely because she didn’t grow up in this country, and her close female friends are from the same region. So she was initially skeptical when I got her reading things like Heartiste and Rational Male. But when she started looking closer and asking questions here and there of her single female friends who were born and raised here, it was an eye-opening experience for her. She felt bad a little self-conscious about her “high single digit” count. So learning that most of them have slept with literally hundreds of men was a bit hard for her to process.

    Now that she’s finally attended a bachelorette party, and seen how the women all acted with the stripper, I intend to take her to a strip club to see who the real pigs are.


  10. Exfernal June 10, 2013 at 16:03 #

    Testosterone drops once a man commits to a relationship. Testosterone drops once a man becomes a father. These changes are involuntary (blame biology and evolution, if you must), and they are reflected in his behavior. He becomes less dominant – “an alpha” – than once was. His creeping betatude slowly kills the romance and attraction in the relationship.


  11. thehumanscorch June 10, 2013 at 16:05 #

    Then I’m forced to agree with Spaniard & TMG in saying that that means you clearly have no idea what it’s like out here for men of *any* kind, “alpha” or “beta” tags notwithstanding.

    Females in general spend their entire lives dreaming up the “perfect” person & the perfect scenarios they’d like to be in. From the time you all are little girls, it’s how you focus your mental energy when it comes to your relationships.
    Then when you actually start dealing with boys/men, no matter what age you start, you all come to the same erroneous conclusion:

    “Because he couldn’t read my mind, and say/do/feel the PRECISE & EXACT things I thought he’d say/do/feel, boys are stupid.”

    That starts the cycle, and then for the rest of our lives, it’s a guessing game for men, with us always gaining or losing points with you based on your own internal, subjective, and complex scenario scoring system, and guess what?


    Say ‘hi’ in too friendly of a way? = DESPERATE LOSER, NO PUSSY FOR YOU

    Act aloof & unconcerned until she comes over & flashes you = HE’S JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHER GUYS, SHOW HIM SOME SKIN, HE’LL FOLD EASILY = POSSIBLY PITY SEX

    Don’t have any money? = LOSER, DON’T EVEN SPEAK TO HIM.


    Like to talk too much? = HE’S SO DAMN GIRLY, NO WET PUSSY HAPPENING HERE.


    And, the one thing that ALL of you have in common: once you let her in your life, she’s going to tell ALL of your business. And I mean ALL of it. From how much money you have, to what kind of faces & sounds you make when you orgasm, to how many times a night you do it, to how clean you keep the house, it doesn’t matter. All of a sudden your entire life now has to be put on blast to her mom, her sisters, her girlfriends, and/or the entire world.

    Men get so fricking tired of everything I just elaborated above until we *have* to figure out how to deal with the CONSTANT FREAKING INSANITY that is femininity.

    Those that quickly see it’s, more often than not, much more trouble than it’s worth, become Alphas or Johns. Get the pussy, and get out. FUCK playing HER game. Crazy inconsistent unpleasable bitches.

    Those that want to *try* to keep up with all of the above become Betas, and unknowingly sign themselves up for a life of complaining, because no matter what choices they make, 50-60% of them will be the wrong ones, and they’ll never be able to understand why.


  12. deti June 10, 2013 at 16:07 #


    You’re quoting Heartiste. This is Roissy, fercryinoutloud. His game is tailored to feral women, lawyerc*nts and bitches. Some of this nuclear stuff won’t work in LTRs or marriages. And a lot of this depends on the girl. You have to know your GF/wife/date.

    Second, you’re approaching this from the standpoint of a wife and not of a GF or STR. You’re looking at this from the wife’s POV and not that of a man who has to manage the relationship. He has to maintain his frame while at the same time not come across like a lovesick puppy trying to curry favor with his woman so she won’t beat him with a stick or deprive him of supper.

    Gifts: The “secret lover” bit is teasing her. You tease and neg her, and then agree and amplify. That’s all Roissy is talking about. The expensive gift thing is about girlfriends, not wives. But by the same token, if you have a wife who is demanding expensive gifts or expecting them, she’s not worth keeping.

    Movies: Come on JB. This is about dating, not marriage. He has to lead her to a movie he wants, or he has to give in on her choice but make it look like he’s not by teasing her.

    Shopping together: The mistress bit is teasing. TEASING.

    When she says annoying or stupid shit: Again: mainly for dating, not for LTRs or marriages. But remember: every woman says annoying or stupid shit sometimes. Usually it’s shit testing (ignore) or PMS (same). Just let her say it, don’t take it personally, and move on.

    Compliments and flattery: Agree with Roissy. A husband should not compliment your wife or flatter her every day. You do not tell her you love her every day. If you do, you come off like a mawkish, cloying school boy and she loses respect for you.

    When things get really bad: Roissy’s advice is to leave for a few hours. You disagreed. You’re wrong. Leaving for a while works wonders. It brings her back to planet Earth, it causes her to think more clearly, and causes her to realize how bad things could REALLY get, because her man isn’t around.

    Maintaining mystery: Roissy’s advice is good. But – if you are married, you should say you’re going to be late getting home from work. The key is you do not ask permission to be late.

    Come on, Judgy. You’re biased, and it shows. Take Roissy’s advice and tone it down here and there; and you’ve got Athol Kay.


  13. Tim June 10, 2013 at 16:11 #

    Saying “announce it would look great on your mistress” is supposed to be taken as a joke by your girlfriend. She is supposed to smile, say “you asshole” and punch you in the arm. When done right she’s not supposed to take it seriously or get angry.

    But on question of middle ground between alpha and beta, there is the concept of the gentleman, like your beloved Mr Darcy. The gentleman doesn’t take crap, holds his women to high standards, but isn’t an asshole.


  14. deti June 10, 2013 at 16:12 #

    +1. Gold.

    The number one problem in marriages today is women marrying men they eventually lose attraction for (or less commonly, were never attracted to in the first place) and then being able to divorce them easily.


  15. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 16:12 #

    Had to google Athol Kay.

    ‘Too many people see getting married as the finishing line when it’s really the starting line.
    ‘You can’t let yourself let yourself go and complain they don’t want you anymore. Marriage is endless courtship.’

    Absolutely agree with this.


  16. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 16:27 #

    Okay. I’m not a totally joyless shrew. My husband likes making jokes about beating me up, and they are completely hilarious because it just doesn’t match his personality at all. He’s a really outgoing, friendly, cheerful person, and the idea of him flying into a rage and smacking me is more or less unthinkable.

    But he didn’t make jokes like that when we were just dating!

    One of our first dates was going to see The Phantom of the Opera, with Emmy Rossum. His only comment was “we are never going to the movies together again”. The only time we watch movies together is when we both love them – sci fi mostly.


  17. Radical Suburbanite June 10, 2013 at 16:27 #

    The hardest thing about the MRA movement is that women like us, the ones who think it’s necessary and are willing to advocate for men, aren’t the ones who they’re directing their alpha game to. I agree with deti- it’s meant to give men tools to deal with the feminist culture that has shaped the women that primarily make up the dating pool.

    Sometimes I worry that the MRA movement will create more resentment toward women and/or a pretty ugly backlash. But a lot of women have brought that on themselves.


  18. Fred Flange, S.J. June 10, 2013 at 16:32 #

    “Agreeing and amplifying” what Deti said. Roissy’s prescriptions are cold and extreme, but even he knows most men will not do all those things, or keep doing them forever. Very few men become hard-core PUA’s. Most men, if they learn any Game, learn just enough Alpha to get an STR started, then hopefully LTR and marriage. And married game is very different than single guy game. Compliments, good gifts and affection are fine for a husband; they are creepy in the early dating context, as is too much emotion puking too early.

    One of the best seduction techniques for men is to let the woman vent or speak at length about herself, and pivot off her topics. Women often stilll think men will take over and blab non-stop; and when they do it becomes tedious. So a “listening” man can be both “sensitive” and “mysterious”. Reveal yourself bit by bit. (if something strikes her poorly then you can bail without having exposed all of yourself). If her preferred topics are too dull/superficial, then you know it is time to NEXT. (She gets the same privilege of course if you talk-puke about your divorce or Glenn Beck’s show or LOTR or the Metallica fan club).

    There’s actually a reason feminists and single women, having at first claimed they want men to be sensitive and nice, REALLY HATE “nice guys”. Their complaint is the nice guy is no better than PUA’s: both want to get into women’s pants but at least the PUA is honest, while the nice guy tries to “disguise” his desire with orbiting and “friendship”, then gets mad when that fails because he won’t come out and admit he’s not trying to be “just a friend”. And you know what? At least on this the feminists and single gals are 100% right. “Nice guys” are not interesting, mysterious, masculine, decisive, humorous or bold; they are often passive, cloying and patronizing, always trying to “please” without displaying any balls. Who wants to sleep with that? Which does not mean alpha = asshole. It does mean alpha = masculine, has a firm sense of self, and can control a situation. How much of game and Alpha technique a man applies depends on what works for him, after lots of practice and failure. (The more ethical PUAs freely admit they get rejected A LOT – they just keep plugging away).


  19. Tim June 10, 2013 at 16:33 #

    There are no Darcy’s because there are no Elizabeths. There are only Wickham’s because there are only Lydias.


  20. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 16:36 #

    Darcy was the “nice guy” in Bridget Jones.
    I think Bridget Jones shows how fuck up is the market in Western Europe. I mean… even in England. I used to live in England in the late 80s and I think the market was quite fair. But now is like becoming “Spanish” (Spanish from Spain) I do not understand it because in Britain, the ratio men-women are 50/50. In Spain is 70/30. What is going on here?
    Jones is a heavy smoker, overweithed, drinks like a Russian sailor, sleeps around, 32 years old, she is cute but I would never say “beautiful” and ALL men (the “nice guy” and the “bad boy”, Cleaver) are MAD about her. I mean: they want to marry her and making the mother of their children.


  21. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 16:39 #


    A man who knows his Pride and Prejudice!

    I am a crazy huge fan of Jane’s, and I think the character I am most like is Elizabeth Bennet. Pride and Prejudice is just another way of saying judgy bitch, isn’t it?

    The character I most aspire to be is Anne Elliot. I admire her grace and kindness and of course, her unwavering loyalty.

    Lydia. That stupid, selfish, clueless little tramp.



  22. Big Bad Jim June 10, 2013 at 16:41 #


    What utter rot! Why, I am utterly disgusted with the boys that infest the “manosphere” and how they prattle about ‘managing women’ and relationships. A real woman wouldn’t give those poseurs the time of day and who could blame them as they spit out stupid buzzwords like ‘game’ and ‘red pills’ and ‘white knights’. To hell with the lot!

    There are no do’s & don’ts to a happy marriage except these: love the one you’re with and accept them in their entirety. Cover for their weaknesses and play to their strengths. If you want something from them talk about it and ask for it. Fight and argue about it if it gets stupid – but always make up and apologize. It is not ‘beta’ to take the odd bullet for the sake of a good relationship.

    Sheesh, it is no wonder the divorce rate is what it is. Marriage and love are such simple things…how can people have problems with it?


  23. tarzanwannabe June 10, 2013 at 16:42 #

    “Sometimes I worry that the MRA movement will create more resentment toward women and/or a pretty ugly backlash”

    Excellent! Yes, it’s time for some vision. Michael Angelo didn’t carve his “David” statue by chipping away at things he didn’t care for. He had a vision and went for it.

    I’m longing for sites – AVFM, AntiMisandry, CH, et al – to mature into including a ‘vision’. Let there be some sharp articulation of what men actually & positively want. Let the Wants stand/fall scrutiny just as the Don’t-Wants have. Backlash? Not if it’s two sided. That’s call a ‘boundary’.


  24. deti June 10, 2013 at 16:45 #

    OH NO! You agree marriage is endless courtship? Sorry, it is not. That kind of mentality creates expectations that a husband has to continually “earn” his wife’s love and commitment. In other words, if he isn’t the exact right mix of alpha and beta at all times, she’s going to leave him because she’s “just not feeling it” or she doesn’t “feel loved”. No man can do this.

    No, marriage is not endless courtship. It’s a commitment. She has either made that commitment or she hasn’t. And her commitment isn’t conditional on how she “feels”.


  25. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 16:50 #

    Can’t it be both?

    And courtship is not just the man’s responsibility.

    I guess I took it to mean “thoughtful romantic gestures” – I always fix my husband’s plate, for example. I’m not trying to control his food, or tell him what he can eat or anything like that. It’s a small thing I do every day to say “I love you”.

    Commitment can’t be conditional an ANYTHING. That’s what commitment means, no?


  26. Tim June 10, 2013 at 16:56 #

    My vision is that once people become aware of the dangers of the current SMP–the single moms, the thugs, the toll it takes on children, the unleashed hypergamy, the carousel, the PUAs–we start to address these problems. I think you end up back with something resembling pre-20th century mores. Men and women ought to strive to be each other’s ideal: men should be masculine, women feminine, women on guard against their own hypergamy and also on guard against cads, men should hold themselves to high standards and earn and keep the respect of their women. I think you end up with the traditional notion of ladies and gentlemen as the ideal. The things working against it is with economic independence, women WANT the sexy bad boys, and so men will give it to them.


  27. deti June 10, 2013 at 16:56 #

    Spoken like a good little obedient beta, Jim.

    Or, perhaps you’re a fortunate man who’s been married a number of years to a good woman who either escaped much of the feminist rot or was never marinated in it.

    Marriage and love are the way they are in the US because the women JB profiles are much like those in the current market from about 20 years ago up to today: shallow, selfish, self-absorbed, uneducated, stupid, slutty, overweight, bitchy, lazy, and having no domestic skills.

    Today’s man in the dating/sexual market has to weed out women and screen them hard if he wants one for an LTR or marriage. Any man nowadays who approaches relationships the way you do gets absolutely steamrolled.


  28. EMMA June 10, 2013 at 16:58 #

    I read that article a few days ago and thought “some points hit home, other’s waaay off.” And I have a feeling it was intended for relationships, not necessarily marriage-because that would be nuts.

    Reading this as a woman, I guess would be the equivalent to a man reading “Why Men Love/Marry Bitches”…Some things DO in fact WORK, men just wouldn’t admit it. Not everything but some, definitely.

    I guess you just have to take it with a grain of salt, and hope men take into consideration that women are different and all of this shit doesn’t work on all of us.

    I don’t think Alphas are assholes. I think assholes are guys who are trying to be alpha but just can’t quite reach “it”. But then again, we all have different definitions of what an “Alpha” is. I see people calling certain types of man an alpha, when all I see is an ass.

    Most recently spotted ALPHA Male: a DFO, omgosh, soooooo hot. Couldn’t believe him. Everything about that man was just sooo…..And every woman in that place felt the same. That was a real ALPHA…


  29. Tim June 10, 2013 at 17:02 #

    “love the one you’re with and accept them in their entirety” I guess you’re not one of the legions of men who have done this only to watch their relationships disintegrate before their eyes as their women lose respect for them.


  30. deti June 10, 2013 at 17:04 #

    That’s beautiful, JB, but you don’t even have to do that. If you want to keep Mr. JB happy, all you need to do is sex him on a regular basis and he’ll never go away. Ever.

    As for him, you want him to be nice to you and do nice little things for you, but none of those things will mean anything to you if you lose attraction for him. So job #1 for him is to maintain his attractiveness, and that’s his alpha traits. Because he can buy you all the flowers at the florist’s shop and it will just be disgusting to you if you don’t want to jump his bones. All the nice things in the world mean exactly bupkus to a woman who just isn’t hot to trot for her man.


  31. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 17:05 #

    I am afraid you are wrong: a “listener” has no verbal skills = loser.
    But, of course, a brilliant conversationalist is always too girly, like Humanscorche says.
    A man who deeply undesrtands women’s mind in a friendly way -like Oscar Wilde-has to be gay, obviously. Or he is too bland.
    A man who deeply understands women’s mind in a no friendly way -like Friedrich Nietzsche- obviously has “mommy issues” and “he cannot get laid”. Loser.

    Etc, etc. etc.


  32. lelnet June 10, 2013 at 17:07 #

    Worth pointing out, here, that the target audience isn’t “married men”. It’s “guys trying to pick up chicks in bars for casual pump-n-dump sex, who might occasionally consider postponing the ‘dump’ part until they’ve gotten even more sex”.

    Some bits of the advice are based on principles that work even when you’re not part of that demo (for instance, if you’re actually interested in women as human beings, and in the sort of relationship that might actually make two people persistently happy). Lots of it, though, is targeted, laser-like, at the bar scene.

    And for the aspiring sociopaths of the bar scene, it’s decent advice. For the rest of us, it’s mostly a chance to express our gratitude at being _out_ of that thoroughly dehumanizing rat-race.


  33. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 17:09 #

    Maybe, we men, love, secretely, the trashy woman. I deeply think so.


  34. deti June 10, 2013 at 17:09 #


    I’m 45 years old; I’ve been with my wife 19 years and married to her 17 years. I earn well into six figures, and provide my wife with a very comfortable lifestyle. A week in Florida, a SAHM/work when she wants lifestyle. She has all the amenities she could want.

    And none of it mattered one. bit. All I could get was duty sex. She wasn’t attracted to me, and it showed. A little Roissy, a little dread, disappearing for a while here and there — brilliant. Turned things around right quick.

    Nice thoughtful gestures and a comfortable life don’t mean shit to a woman if attraction isn’t there. At best she’ll tolerate him and give up grudging duty sex. At worst, she’ll toss him away for the UPS man or the motorcycle riding friend of a friend.


  35. thehumanscorch June 10, 2013 at 17:20 #

    “And none of it mattered one. bit. All I could get was duty sex. She wasn’t attracted to me, and it showed. A little Roissy, a little dread, disappearing for a while here and there — brilliant. Turned things around right quick.”

    This right here.
    Men and women are no different in the sense that, men want their dicks to get hard, women want their coochies as wet as possible.
    The actual difference?

    1) Men will admit it.
    2) The trigger for men is almost completely universal; the hair, hip-to-waist ratio, firm skin/boobs, nice smile, or, barring all of that, sometimes just youth.

    Women will not admit the truth:

    It’s always as simple as that.
    And the difference between women is astounding and maddening. That’s why men get frustrated, because what works for one woman is not guaranteed to work for another, and then you have to factor in age, is she a gf vs. a wife vs. a pump n’ dump, her upbringing, and then, as I said before, her invisible ever-morphing expectation set.


  36. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 17:20 #

    Well there you have it then. I find my husband wildly attractive, and so do lots of other women. He came to pick me up at the grocery store a few days ago, and I could see the heads of women swivel to watch him. He’s tall and in great shape and has amazing hair and gorgeous sky blue eyes and lots and lots of women admire him.

    Knowing that other women would be happy to have him doesn’t threaten me – it delights me! And it keeps me mindful of my own shape, too.

    Sex is part of our daily routine, and not because I think it’s my duty, or his! We like it! It’s fun and it feels wonderful.

    Hmmm. Maybe that’s why I don’t really struggle with my weight. I don’t need food to feel physically wonderful. Food is definitely pleasurable, but it’s not my primary source of pleasure.

    I wonder if I could start a new fad diet with that? Put down the cupcakes, ladies, and go hit your beefcake!


  37. tarzanwannabe June 10, 2013 at 17:21 #

    I’d go with that. There are the complimentary impulses to spread seed and gather seed. Our environment once offered natural limitations to these impulses and as a result we didn’t need to create them for ourselves. It’s been a while since we were on that Savanna and these open-ended pursuits can leave us cannibalizing each other. (see “I’m not haaaaapy”) Cultivating those impulses into something sustainable and fulfilling isn’t oppression. It’s civilization. And we’re still building that. Haha.


  38. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 17:35 #

    We, men, need the Slut and the Church Girl.
    You, women, need the Jerk and the Nice Guy.
    We, both, need Salt (and Spice) and Sugar, too.
    I am convinced that modern Western women are a materpiece of the Slut and the Church Girl all together.
    But men still too loose. They cannot play both rols.


  39. deti June 10, 2013 at 17:39 #

    “Knowing that other women would be happy to have him doesn’t threaten me – it delights me! And it keeps me mindful of my own shape, too.”

    Behold, Judgybitches and judgybastards: Confirmation of Roissy’s Second Commandment:

    “No girl wants a man who no other woman wants.”


  40. tarzanwannabe June 10, 2013 at 17:40 #

    heh-heh You’re describing one application of the feminist’s notion of “get it”. There’s a feminist testimonial saw about when a particular woman would “get it.” Following a sufficient amount of women’s studies, all the stars align and she can “get it.” Armed with bloated belly full of “get it” rhetoric, there’s nothing that can escape the ability to solipsistic-ally re-frame anything/anyone into “woman good, man bad.” The same is found for most any political ideology and the purpose for “think tanks”. You’ll find an equivalent “get it” among rabid Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, and attendees of Amway conferences. Or maybe “you just don’t get it!” (just kidding, couldn’t help trying it out for myself. 🙂


  41. deti June 10, 2013 at 17:49 #


    “Why Men Love/Marry Bitches?” That’s easy.

    Because she’s hot and she sexes him, and she threatens to break up with him unless they get married. He marries her because he wants the sex to continue. You’d be amazed at how much bitchiness a man will tolerate as long as he’s getting laid in a halfway decent fashion by a girl he’s attracted to (which is about half of all the women on the planet).

    “I think assholes are guys who are trying to be alpha but just can’t quite reach “it”.”

    Translation: The guy isn’t hot enough or confident enough or dominant enough or muscular enough or thin enough for my tastes. Therefore, if he tries it, he just comes off like a dick to me.

    “Most recently spotted ALPHA Male: a DFO, omgosh, soooooo hot. Couldn’t believe him. Everything about that man was just sooo…..And every woman in that place felt the same. That was a real ALPHA”

    This proves HumanScorch’s point to a T. Emma sees a man she believes is an alpha, yet she can’t describe him. She just “knows it when she sees it.”

    And you women wonder why we men get so damn frustrated.

    Emma, a challenge to you. Time for you to throw down.

    That Alpha you swooned over? Describe him in as much detail as you possibly can. Appearance, clothing, mannerism, demeanor, mien. I bet you cannot do it. I’ll wait.


  42. princesspixiepointless June 10, 2013 at 17:59 #

    I don’t know about that. I think you can be a jerk and a nice guy, it’s just getting the percentages right. I was a bit of an asshole when i was on the dating scene. Well a bitch, not a treat em mean kept em keen game player, just a bitch, because I am angry by nature.

    When I met my guy, who was way too nice to me, I thought I’d try to be nice for a change, while still keeping it all at arms length.

    I can sympathise, with the fellas these types of articles are written for. No one that is seeking such advice would execute the examples perfectly all the time. I would hate to be on the dating scene again. Because I’m not a bitch at all anymore.

    Point being, the man that was nice and a jerk to me sometimes, (called me on my bullshit) ended up being the man I am still (10 yrs on) with and started a family with. No one likes a kiss ass. So I can see where it’s coming from, in a way…


  43. tarzanwannabe June 10, 2013 at 18:05 #

    I suspect hormonal contraceptives have a hand (fist?) in there somewhere. Her body chooses mates differently when it thinks it’s pregnant than when not. Once off the pill, only a ‘brotherly’ love remains. Oprah nods sympathetically when she explains “I love him, but I’m not In Love with him anymore.”


  44. Leap of a Beta June 10, 2013 at 18:14 #

    Alpha is all about doing what you want for the sake of doing what you want, not giving into other people, not submitting to societal standards, and living life to the fullest.

    There are times when ‘what is alpha’ is incredibly stupid for any long term goals.

    Beta is the submission of the self to benefit others. Others can be a girlfriend, a company, society, your mother, your father, your friends – anyone really. That’s not saying it’s bad, just that it isn’t always in your best interests. Sometimes doing so is smart, many times it’s not.

    Then ‘Game’ is the art of selling who you are to the world in order to get what you want from it. Having game is part of being Alpha, in that you won’t get what you want from the world if you don’t know how to interact with the world.

    JB, you have to realize that these definitions of Alpha/Beta are men learning how to be men in a world that hates them and has destroyed the ONLY RELIABLE method of making boys into men – fatherhood. Without it, there are now a bunch of boys running around, not knowing why society is putting them through a gauntlet filled with pretty lies, misdirection, dreams that are completely unrealistic, and hidden knives for the unsuspecting. Those of us that survive have mixed feelings and no sense of allegiance to society instilled within us.

    So, now that feminism destroyed masculinity, we’re remaking it. There will be parts that you hate, especially as an older woman with family.

    But these are the parts that are showing that they work for getting men what they want.

    Personally, Roissy’s goals in life are not mine. I fall more in the traditional goals, but with enough of a hedonistic streak I occasionally engage in that I pay attention to his writing. But mostly I read the classical literature, philosophy, politics, go outdoors to love life, save towards guns for fun/protection, go to the gym, buy nice clothing, and make under 15k a year because I see no point in making more when I do what I love as an artist and can pay rent doing that. Hell, of that 15k a year last year only about 5k was taxable, the rest was under the table.

    Feminism empowered women to make their own choices. You write here constantly of how stupid those choices they make are, because many of them lead to their own unhappiness as well as men’s.

    It also empowered men to react to the conditions on the ground. We see the real risks you write of here involving rape accusations, divorce, and general ingratitude of women. Women, when they develop characteristics that are no different than men, seem to us to be only good for sex while also being wild enough to only respond to the type of advice you see here (though all the advice and the way you read it are far more serious than the teasing tone it’s meant to be delivered in). If women don’t like it, they can vote with their feet, much as men are doing right now.

    So far though, they’re eating it up.

    You do good work with looking at ways and attitudes that would fix the system if adopted, or at least make it better. But men saying the same have much more to lose, if they even have an inclination to speak up at all.

    So, they’re doing things the army way. Adapt. Implement. Conquer.


  45. princesspixiepointless June 10, 2013 at 18:17 #

    Yeah, would love to see it too. As I thought of describing some of the alphas I have met, and there are words, but nothing that really translates. So it sounds soppy or un true.


  46. thehumanscorch June 10, 2013 at 18:19 #

    Let me also add in another truth that many men miss, and that all females are LOATHE to admit. I mean they will scratch their own eyes out, and yours too, before they say what I’m about to say now:


    It changes from day to day, sometimes hour to hour, or minute to minute, depending on a variety of hormonal, stress-related, and other factors.


  47. Leap of a Beta June 10, 2013 at 18:19 #

    Also, of course there’s middle ground. Roissy writes theoretical in this post for men that are likely to submissive anyways. That’s his target for advice, the man that will do a little bit of his advice but not all of it. To slowly grow a spine.

    The reality is the men on the ground, in the middle ground. Very few are PUA’s, but we learn game to get what we’re able, because we judge we wouldn’t be able to be fathers on the terms we demand.

    Read this post of Mentu’s from the University of Man archives I’m re-posting. It clearly says exactly where the middle ground is as men perceive it.


  48. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 18:23 #

    Very interesting.
    Probably your man was not so “good guy”. I mean, if you are a “good guy” but you dare to approach a bitch, to deal with a bitch, to love her bitchiness, to dare to have a long steady relationship with her, and you dare to tame her (or wait her to be tamed by time) you are kind of “sweet bad boy” Maybe?
    So, you are not a bitch anymore but maybe your man misses a quantum of the bitch, sometimes. If she liked you as a bitch, he should. Right?


  49. LostSailor June 10, 2013 at 18:26 #

    What utter rot! Why, I am utterly disgusted with the boys that infest the “manosphere” and how they prattle about ‘managing women’ and relationships.

    Twaddle. Every person in a relationship is managing that relationship in one way or another. Marriage and love are not simple things; they need tending, and you can either tend them well and successfully or you can tend them as a poor beta and, as Tim notes, watch them disintegrate and die.

    Too many men have followed your advice and suffered for it. Contrary to your ignorant opinion, when done well, “real women” won’t even know they’re being gamed.

    You write like a feminist, Jimmy…


  50. EMMA June 10, 2013 at 18:34 #

    Oh, no. I CAN in fact describe him. I just didn’t think others wanted to hear…

    Around 6’3, built, stacked, broad shoulders. Thick hair. He’s a DFO, just back stateside-so the hottest beard EVER! He was 28. He had on dark clothes. Dark shirt, dark jeans. He had big hands. Yes, he was physically HOT in a huge, overwhelming way but it was his demeanor that was most attractive. He seemed quiet but not shy. And when our group was FINALLY introduced, his voice was deep but he still wasnt saying much. He was authoritative when he did speak, but he never insulted any of the many girls that were trying to get his attention-myself included. And he didn’t make any jokes either. He didn’t say anything funny.

    I remember thinking he looked so… strong. And no, it wasnt until after I found out what he did for a living, and then it just kind of made sense. He was able to convey a lot of masculine characteristics without having to say much. They way he stood, spoke, looked. I guess to sum it up he was a really hot “strong, silent” type. Which really doesn’t fit the stereotype that alphas are all charismatic and always center of attention. Maybe he was, I never found out.

    This was almost a year ago. I haven’t seen anyone like him since then. To me, that’s an alpha. It may be different that someone else’s definition…


  51. Tim June 10, 2013 at 18:50 #

    You don’t know about Athol Kay? He’s one of the most important figures in the ‘sphere. Check out his site: married mans sex life.


  52. LostSailor June 10, 2013 at 18:51 #

    Not really much to add since deti, as he usually does, pretty much said what I would have said.

    But JB, the question you’re asking is the wrong question: it’s not necessarily that alpha=asshole (it can, but doesn’t have to), it’s how much of the alpha a man needs to apply, especially to relationships and marriage, and when to apply it. It’s not a constant thing. The teases about secret lovers and mistresses and meant to be delivered with a grin, not as an intimation of infidelity.

    A lot of the other are right, too, that a lot of this advice is for men dating or in shorter-term relationships (though it does work in longer-term relationships as well, as deti attests). It’s clear that you haven’t been out on the dating market for some time; it’s a jungle out there.

    The thing is, like others here, I read Roissy after my divorce and realized the truth: in the early parts of courtship and marriage, I naturally acted like this. Not all the time, but enough of the time. I often the punch in the arm and a grinning “you asshole” from my wife and knew that all was right in the relationship. But over the years, I lost some of those qualities, and the marriage slowly died. Reading Roissy I realized that if I’d had my eyes opened earlier, a marriage could have been saved.

    So, does alpha=asshole? Sometimes. And you’ll love them all the more for it…

    Heartiste/Roissy has written a fair amount on Relationship game. Here’s a sampling:


  53. EMMA June 10, 2013 at 18:55 #

    Yes! It is difficult to explain because its not just a physical thing.


  54. princesspixiepointless June 10, 2013 at 18:58 #

    Emma, What does DFO stand for?

    I can imagine too many odd acronyms.

    I absolutely love your description of the Alpha, the one I knew…a long time ago. fits.


  55. princesspixiepointless June 10, 2013 at 19:00 #

    Does Fuck Off
    Domestic Fuckable Omega
    I get it is probably a PUA term or something, but if you could clarify, I would appreciate it.


  56. deti June 10, 2013 at 19:01 #


    Thanks for responding. I really didn’t think you would.

    You described a man you find sexually attractive. Which to you means “alpha”. And he is a classically attractive man. One you find attractive; and so did everyone else.

    Note the typical description: broad shoulders, large hands, imposing figure, tall (over 6 feet); deep voice, doesn’t talk much, but when he does, it’s profound.

    That, my friends, is what you’re up against. And it’s why Game exists.

    What Emma won’t tell you is why she finds that man attractive. It’s because she perceives him as being best able to ward off physical threats, best able to protect her, and best able to impregnate her and give her children who will survive. Best able to impregnate her with boys that will look like him and go on to impregnate other girls.

    Emma, be honest: if you were single and this alpha was too, and he propositioned you, would you have had sex with him that night? If you answer honestly, you’ll say you at least would have considered it very seriously.

    As you can see from Leap’s description below, “alpha” means different things, of course. But at least to Emma, “alpha” means “Man I find sexually attractive”.


  57. deti June 10, 2013 at 19:01 #


    Thanks for responding. I really didn’t think you would.

    You described a man you find sexually attractive. Which to you means “alpha”. And he is a classically attractive man. One you find attractive; and so did everyone else.

    Note the typical description: broad shoulders, large hands, imposing figure, tall (over 6 feet); deep voice, doesn’t talk much, but when he does, it’s profound.

    That, my friends, is what you’re up against. And it’s why Game exists.

    What Emma won’t tell you is why she finds that man attractive. It’s because she perceives him as being best able to ward off physical threats, best able to protect her, and best able to impregnate her and give her children who will survive. Best able to impregnate her with boys that will look like him and go on to impregnate other girls.

    Emma, be honest: if you were single and this alpha was too, and he propositioned you, would you have had sex with him that night? If you answer honestly, you’ll say you at least would have considered it very seriously.

    As you can see from Leap’s description below, “alpha” means different things, of course. But at least to Emma, “alpha” means “Man I find sexually attractive”.


  58. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 19:11 #

    It really seems there is something missing from that definition, though.

    There are lots of men I find sexually attractive, but that’s not enough for me to describe them as alpha.

    My husband was literally the first man I ever met to whom the word alpha seemed to apply. He’s not the strong, silent type at all. What he has is … charisma. People are drawn to him. He is a very natural leader. He’s the sort of person other people instantly like and trust.

    That’s what distinguishes an alpha for me. Commanding with grace and strength and the total assumption of authority.

    And that’s why I fail to understand the asshole element. Sure, Mr. JB CAN be an asshole, but he hates it when that happens. He perceives it as a personal failure when someone makes him act in a way he doesn’t think is particularly honorable or admirable.

    For him, an alpha is NEVER an asshole, especially not to women.

    He’s pretty old school, though.


  59. freetofish June 10, 2013 at 19:12 #


    Pre-qualified men are the most attractive to women. Ask any reasonably well put together married guy and he will tell you contrary to what would seem logical, a wedding band is cat-nip to single ladies.


  60. Xayadvara June 10, 2013 at 19:12 #

    The way I see it, it all comes down to this.

    Alphas are those who completely operate and are always in full control of their frame. They are willing to converge frame with others when they see real tangible incentives based on cost-benefit analysis. Otherwise it’s a pointless exercise which they will not participate in.

    Betas are those who harbor utopian dreams and allow others to operate their frame – as they see it as efforts to help them achieve those fantasies. They do not operate a frame based on a pragmatic approach and are hence liable for exploitation. They don’t converge frame but rather give up frame control to others. This is the basic difference, I am sure the others up there expanded on it sufficiently well.

    JB, I think you are looking at the wrong place. Ian Ironwood & his is the correct place for you ( even politically – he is a Democrat, though it’s irrelevant ). Both he & Athol Kay are the people who are your comrades here much more than Hertiste. Maybe you can spin over to their places and see if you agree with them more


  61. Fred Flange, S.J. June 10, 2013 at 19:14 #

    I see what you did there, OK, I get it. But, more seriously, note what I said: a listener who PIVOTS off what the woman says. He can redirect, make a joke, do a neg, whatever. He doesn’t have to do much, just keep the frame. But yeah, sitting there saying nothing, flat as a flat tire = LOSER.


  62. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 19:14 #

    I need people I disagree with, though! It’s more fun to judge opinions I don’t share.


  63. EMMA June 10, 2013 at 19:17 #

    Domestic Fuckable Omega, haha!
    No, he was a special forces soldier. That’s what it meant. And I just realized a few weeks ago that PUA meant pick up artists. Yeh, so I definitely don’t know or use any of their acronyms.


  64. LostSailor June 10, 2013 at 19:23 #

    It’s sounds like Mr. JB is a natural alpha, which is a somewhat rare thing. Yes, a true alpha is usually very charismatic. Some charismatic men can be assholes as well, but they’re usually forgiven their transgressions pretty easily.

    But for guys that aren’t as naturally charismatic, there are ways of at least amping and reinforcing what you do have. It doesn’t have be involve assholery…


  65. LostSailor June 10, 2013 at 19:27 #

    It’s not a PUA term I’ve ever heard of, but, then, I’ve never paid much attention to all the acronyms.

    But here, I’d go with Dangerous Foreign Object. Very alpha….


  66. freetofish June 10, 2013 at 19:30 #

    as I said up thread a bit, a true alpha is charismatic and people are drawn to him even without doing anything overt like being loud or trying to be the centre of attention. They are the centre of a attention in a social setting because of their natural charisma.

    The ones that come off loud, obnoxious and assholeish are usually a more beta man who thinks that’s how an alpha acts.

    One of the most powerful attraction tools if your not a natural alpha in learning to mimic one is aloofness. Its much better than over compensating and being the loud guy.

    As Emma put it “He was able to convey a lot of masculine characteristics without having to say much. They way he stood, spoke, looked. I guess to sum it up he was a really hot “strong, silent” type. ”

    Of course it’s easier if you are 6’3 and built like a brick shithouse.

    The thing is, not all attractive, muscular men are alphas at all. I know more than one that are so indoctrinated by feminist thought they are just as supplicating and fawning as the stereo-typical nerdy orbitor that ends up sitting on a couch on friday night watching the notebook while doing his “BFF’s” nails while listening to her whine about why the Hell’s Angel she screwed last night hasn’t called her back.


  67. Leap of a Beta June 10, 2013 at 19:31 #

    Fairly good description.

    I personally hate the alpha/beta debate. For men, there’s masculine behavior and there’s unmasculine behavior. Then there’s charisma as a separate skill. There’s a lot of gray area in there, but that’s how life is. What you do matters in all areas of life, but how you spin it and present it to the world is just as important. Roissy would be the first to say that it matters much less of what you do so much as how you do it.

    I say this because this conversation looks like it’s about to be one of many in the ‘Sphere that becomes circular in it’s discussion. If JB wants to nit pick the terms because she doesn’t understand them, that’s fine.

    But really, being attractive to women and being good at being a man are not necessarily the same thing. The first is part of the second, but only a part.

    Roissy is a HUGE influence on the ‘Sphere in terms of game and setting the tone, but he’s only the surface. There’s a large underground exploration of masculinity that began with people seeing Roissy, and applying the same strength of a man saying, “I am who I am, this is what I do, and this is what I want.” in a relationship, and applying it to life.

    The individual’s application of that spirit is what makes him ‘Alpha’. Or, as I would say, it is what makes him a man. A player is just a player. A player can also be a man if he’s getting what he wants out of the rest of his life though, and not just using pussy as a distraction from an otherwise unrewarding lifestyle void of meaning.

    We do this because women have shown that we’re not entitled to sex, to wives, to jobs, to love, to our children. We’re taking women at their world.. So men are now the ones that get to choose if a life is void of meaning or not. And even then, really just the individual now that all the social contracts have been broken. Certainly women get no say other than whether they choose to be with such men or not.


  68. Leap of a Beta June 10, 2013 at 19:35 #

    That was a long way of explaining a short thought – Charisma and masculinity are not the same thing. Alpha, as a term, can either be just the first or combine the terms. Thus, while sometimes helpful, if you’re not aware of how the individual author uses it the term can often obfuscate the discussion, especially when you get multiple people using it different ways involved.


  69. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 19:35 #

    Leap, I think fatherhood is a destruction for the male.
    Motherhood is different. Women want to be mothers because they love to be tamed.
    “What is the only way to tame a woman? to redeem her, to cure her?: you have to get her pregnant”. Friedrich Nietzcshe.
    Ok, mission accomplished. But in that very moment you are done. She is full of womanhood. It is another kind of womanhood, not the “wild girl” anymore, but you do not increase your manhood. You just become a bland, good, working provider. Totally submissive to society. That is not alpha.


  70. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 19:36 #

    You hit it.


  71. deti June 10, 2013 at 19:37 #

    A couple of things:

    1. This post illustrates something I’ve noticed recently. I mean no disrespect to you, JB, nor to other women here, but I want to point this out.

    I’ve been commenting in and around the manosphere for more than 2 years. In that time I don’t see many women coming to more understanding of male-female sexual relationships. Honestly, we still seem way, far away from any kind of meaningful dialogue between the sexes. Women either don’t understand it; or they are frankly horrified by what they find when they come to sites like this one.

    I see a lot of women still just not understanding where men are, what they have to go through, where they’re coming from, and why men are so pissed off and frustrated. With all due respect, women, You. Just. Don’t. Get It. JB, you don’t understand the attraction of the asshole because YOU, YOURSELF, don’t see it and YOU, YOURSELF, haven’t experienced it. A perfect example of solipsism. But many women are attracted to the asshole because of his outsized hypermasculinity. That is the attraction – he cannot be controlled. She certainly cannot control him. He doesn’t give a shit what anyone thinks of him; he will not play by her rules; and he will do what he wants, when he wants.

    2. Another thing I think is very, very interesting is that when I hear women describe an alpha male, it almost always comes down to “Man I Am Sexually Attracted To”. Without exception, every woman blogging in and around these parts who has a successful marriage is married to a man to whom she claims to be strongly sexually attracted. Every. Single. One.

    Thus, I have to conclude the secret to a successful marriage or LTR is that the woman finds you strongly sexually attractive. She needs to want to hump you all the time. She needs to be ready, willing and able to jump your bones on a moment’s notice. If you see anything less than that, she isn’t attracted, and probably never will be.

    In today’s day and age, it seems to me that unless your wife finds you so sexually attractive she is begging you to penetrate her every single day, YOU. LOSE. The only way to keep a marriage together is that the woman is strongly sexually attracted to you. It isn’t enough for her to like you, or for you to be good company, or make good money, or have a good skill. For lack of a better phrase, she has to want to fuck you all the time. If she doesn’t, it’s not going to work.


  72. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 19:37 #

    I think it works the same for men. That is why men love sluts.


  73. EMMA June 10, 2013 at 19:38 #

    I don’t know deti, I was definitely sexually attracted to him. But I respected him more than I wanted to fuck him? I find guys who are physically attractive with a good personality, sexually attractive. But they don’t make me feel the way this man made me feel.

    I understand where you’re coming from, but I think it was more to it than that.

    Regarding your question, if after directing his attention to me, he did proposition me that night…for casual sex? I don’t know. He turned me on, but I don’t think I would of wanted to bang him THAT night. Not the smartest girl in the world here, but that would of ruined any potential future with him. Which would of been the ultimate goal.


  74. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 19:39 #



  75. Tim June 10, 2013 at 19:41 #

    I hate the alpha/beta debate also. The way I think of it is that, say there are 1000 things women might find attractive in men. The more of these traits you have, the more alpha you are. There is no alpha/beta dividing line, although the concept is very useful to make things easy to understand. I know I’ve been in groups of men where I was definitely lower on the totem pole, and others where all the men looked up to me. I was beta in the former group and the alpha male in the later.


  76. Leap of a Beta June 10, 2013 at 19:41 #

    Keep her barefoot in the kitchen and pregnant!

    Joking aside, I know what you mean. It is a small part of why I’ve avoided relationships since taking the red pill – I’m focusing on other parts of my attractiveness and life. From what I’ve observed though, the only way to keep a marriage alive is if you’re able to occasionally remind the woman that she is the wild girl, and that you’re able to be her captain on an adventure. It’s not that you do it every day, but that you do it often enough.

    You pick a woman that enjoys mothering, and then never let her forget that she’s still a lover at the same time.


  77. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 19:45 #

    The inverse is true, too.

    Pick a man who enjoys providing, and then never let him forget that he’s still a lover at the same time.


  78. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 19:49 #

    Is she Eastern European? If not indiscreet.


  79. Leap of a Beta June 10, 2013 at 19:50 #

    No, there’s 1000 flavors of the same thing that women find attractive.

    Strength of will
    Physical Strength
    Material resources

    Those are the basis for women’s attraction. Different women might have quirks that assign values to one over the other, but those are the basic foundations for a man to build his life upon for himself, that he then needs to learn how to market to the kind of woman he wants to be with.

    Think of it in terms of architecture. Foundations are almost always exactly the same, with the changes dictated by the end result the designer wants. But you rarely see the foundation and most would have a hard time describing what it really is or how it works. They just see the above ground beauty the foundation is able to achieve, and that is where all the work within the foundation comes to beautiful fruition based on the individual desires of the designer. Then, when it’s complete, the designer goes to find someone that would like to own the building.

    The designer puts in the work that’s unseen, makes a dream that satisfies him, and then sells the beauty. People don’t buy buildings based on the foundation, but it better be there and in good condition.


  80. Leap of a Beta June 10, 2013 at 19:56 #


    But only if you’re in the marriage market.

    The problem is that most women aren’t. They say they are, but their actions show men that they’re not serious buyers. They’ll take a man if they find a good discount on one. A man with all the features they want willing to take a wife that has no wifely attributes and demands to retain a resale value.

    Men are beginning to see that this is a bum deal. They’re tired of women presuming we’re on sale at a discount price. So, instead of working ourselves to death, many are matching the prices they’re seeing and enjoying themselves while they do it.

    Just like women have done for the last 20 years.


  81. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 20:00 #

    JB, I am dangerous social-democrat. If I would be American, I am afraid I would vote Democrat. Sorry.
    Funny, in Spain the conservatives call themselves “liberals”.
    Because “economic liberalism”. Well, “libertarians” in States, right?


  82. deti June 10, 2013 at 20:07 #

    I have a question, Emma: Why do women engage in casual sex? Why do women agree to one night stands?


  83. princesspixiepointless June 10, 2013 at 20:13 #

    Thanks Emma, I had to ditch the 30 seconds I spent on Mumsnet for their insane/inane acronyms.
    But what does DFO stand for?
    Defence ohmygodwekuckass oh yes league?


  84. Funtacular June 10, 2013 at 20:15 #

    The answer to JB’s original question really is “all of the above”. Part of the problem with the PUA literature is the terminology. PUA writers use “alpha” in a different context than its normal usage. Generally, in behavioral studies, “alpha” refers to the status of an individual within the context of their own peer group (Including sex/gender). Therefore, there can be alpha males and females, each within their own context. The weird thing about PUA terminology is that it distorts the use of alpha insofar as it defines the term as the status of a male among females, not other males (as in the normal usage of alpha).

    When I first started reading PUA literature, I was surprised to find vain, selfish assholes being referred to as alphas. After all, those are the kind of guys we used to torture in my all-male boarding school, and at my all-male eating club (read: fraternity) in college. The PUA alphas certainly did not match the many Spec Ops officers I worked with in graduate school. The ultimate PUA alpha is very often a vain, selfish jerk who shapes himself to meet the desires of women and not the expectations of men.

    That said, women often love vain, selfish jerks. Accordingly, I learned a lot from the PUA books. Years ago, I was a partner in an investment firm. After a wild ride, it eventually went belly-up. I was financially ruined and my self-confidence was shot; getting back into the dating game was not easy. The PUA books taught me a few tricks on reading women and feigning a higher degree of self-confidence. My career eventually turned-around in a big way, but those books helped me break my losing streak before fortune again smiled upon me. I wish that I could be cocky when the chips are down, but I can’t lie that much to myself.

    The bottom-line is that the PUA stuff has to be read with a big grain of salt. It often appeals to our more misogynistic impulses, which do peak when times are tough for men. And let’s face it, times are very tough for men right now. Moreover, few women value men as men (JB excepted, it would seem). Until they do, vain selfish jerks are what they’ll get.


  85. Leap of a Beta June 10, 2013 at 20:27 #

    “Another thing I think is very, very interesting is that when I hear women describe an alpha male, it almost always comes down to “Man I Am Sexually Attracted To”. Without exception, every woman blogging in and around these parts who has a successful marriage is married to a man to whom she claims to be strongly sexually attracted. Every. Single. One.”


    Men define it as more, but women don’t. I think Stingray started trying to understand, but then got busy and stopped blogging as often. I haven’t seen any other women come close.

    It might just be that their emotional attraction subsumes their ability to understand the elements building the attractive elements when it gets to be that strong of a feeling for them.


  86. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 20:34 #

    There have been three extended periods in my marriage when I lost all interest in my husband sexually: the first months with a new baby.

    My hormones were fucked, I was completely exhausted and I was fat!

    But as my biology settled down, the baby started sleeping and my weight returned to normal, all my desire came back.

    I think women seriously underestimate the effect being fat has on their minds. Disgust is a total libido killer.

    Fat women taking hormonal birth control, working full time jobs and getting little sleep?

    Sounds like an average woman.


  87. Mina June 10, 2013 at 20:39 #

    I actually started a blog very recently and thought about chiming in on all this stuff – Then decided it would be more fun to just stick to my gardening, horse farm, and workout notes. And my husband told me that was all he’d tolerate my telling the world about. 😉 Yeah, I’m hot for him. No, I don’t want him to “penetrate” me all the time (man, I’d get sore, don’t know about you, JB) But, he does get whatever service he desires pretty much whenever he wants it provided I am awake (there’s the challenge) We have a lot of “service items” on our menu. At any rate, my take on all this: Women pick the man that’s the right “alpha” for them. He needs to be the boss of you, not necessarily capable of being the boss of everyone. And his version of being boss has to be attractive to you and continuously reinforce and enhance your respect for him.


  88. Leap of a Beta June 10, 2013 at 20:39 #


    Though I don’t see how this comment of yours is relevant to the question of if women are able to understand what about individual men makes the woman attracted to that man. Especially in regards to emotions overriding their ability to rationally consider the man’s qualities and characteristics in detail.


  89. Radical Suburbanite June 10, 2013 at 20:43 #

    Your husband also sounds like he has a good sense of humor (the sonnet). Stuff like that cracks me up.


  90. deti June 10, 2013 at 20:51 #


    Yeah, Leap has it here.

    The point I was trying to make was that there is sustained strong sexual attraction. No, it isn’t constant; yes, it ebbs and flows; and no, husband and wife are not literally having sex all the time.

    But there is an attraction, a pull, a drawing to; and that pull is sexual in nature. It is not just “he’s a great friend” or “he’s a buddy”. It is sexual, romantic, eros-type love. And it is always present in a low hum, constantly running.

    The fact that you were recovering from childbirth didn’t reduce your eros type love; nor that of your husband for you. So your weight or childbirth recovery isn’t really germane.


  91. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 20:53 #

    I think I can unpack what, exactly I find attractive about my husband, from a rational standpoint.

    It begins with understanding myself – what motivates me, and especially, what FRIGHTENS me. I was raised in an emotionally volatile, violent home, so I needed a calm, emotionally stable man.

    That upbringing also ensured that I wanted a physically imposing man who could protect me.

    Because I had virtually no examples of sane adults making responsible decisions, I wanted someone who was prepared to make decisions for me, and accept that I can’t always be counted on to make great decisions myself.

    I call it “putting the edges on my world”. My husband sets boundaries. I need him to do that. I understand that about myself.

    I’m also grateful for his willingness to do that. In return, he gets a wife who is pretty much 100% devoid of emotional drama, which is what he wanted. As he says, he never has to guess how I feel. I do not say “I’m fine” and then go weep and sulk and make him beg and plead and supplicate himself to figure out what is wrong.

    Add my incredibly strong desire for children, and voila. That pretty much sums it up.

    I know I am flawed. I picked someone who voids those flaws.


  92. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 20:59 #

    Because women are never in love.
    Women are “designed” to love the baby not to love men. Women do not need to love men, they need to be loved by men, in case not, men will “hit and run” leaving alone with her pregnancy.
    Men are “designed” to love women. Deeply.
    Women can feel punctual “fireworks”, that is all, but not love as men we feel it and understand it.
    “La donna e mobile”.
    Herr Friedrich again: “Men are just a way for women not a goal, but what are women for men?”. Clearly: a goal.


  93. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 20:59 #

    Oh, I’m also a super competitive bitch. I wanted a man other women wanted, too. He’s a status symbol in that way. Maybe that’s why I care little about material items that signal status.

    My husband and my three gorgeous children are far more effective.


  94. princesspixiepointless June 10, 2013 at 21:00 #

    Yeah. Never thought about ‘sweet bad boy’, I think or thought he saw thru my bullshit. Time and being loved, made a huge difference.


  95. feeriker June 10, 2013 at 21:01 #

    Alphas get betas at the end of the day. Alphas have more chances of marriage. And they do. And they have children with wife. And then… they are betas. A “father” is always a beta. Parenthood is a beta condition. Especially for men.

    Spot on.

    Take comfort in this statement, guys, next time “the girl of your dreams” [*smirk*] welds herself to Mr. Alpha. He’s in for more punishment –a whole long, slow lifetime of it– than you could ever dream of inflicting upon him in your misguided, momentary thirst for “revenge.”

    Although you probably won’t realize it at the time, Mr. Alpha is doing you a very, very big favor. Be sure to thank him for it after giving him several years of marriage to let it all sink in.


  96. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 21:04 #

    Oh, it was completely hilarious!

    I have permission to quote the last two lines from the poet himself:

    Stick with me and you’ll never get hurt,
    Enough of this shit, go iron my shirt.

    It was romance exemplified.



  97. Leap of a Beta June 10, 2013 at 21:07 #

    The question is: How many women do you think actually consider what would be good for them in a relationship? Then how many of those actually follow through? Compare those to the norm of simply going with ‘what feels right.’

    My experience on the ground, and what I’ve seen from other men, is that the latter ‘what feels right’ is the norm. I understand that what is right also has to be what feels right, but what feels right isn’t always what is right. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn’t always a square.


  98. deti June 10, 2013 at 21:08 #

    This still comes down to “Man I want to fuck”.


  99. feeriker June 10, 2013 at 21:12 #

    I would argue that “low testosterone” is actually a result of STRESS – much of it brought on by the onus of having to deal with contemporary relationship dynamics.

    I will also state that, from experience, testosterone levels tend to SKYROCKET, even for those of us in late middle age, once these stress levels are reduced or eliminated.


  100. zykos June 10, 2013 at 21:15 #

    “The hardest thing about the MRA movement is that women like us […] aren’t the ones who they’re directing their alpha game to.”

    Alpha game should be directed to everyone. But with ladies like you, we can relax a bit, not worry constantly about doing anything beta, and enjoy the relationship. Think how much weight that has in choosing an LTR or a wife.

    “Sometimes I worry that the MRA movement will create more resentment toward women and/or a pretty ugly backlash.”

    No need for the future tense, it’s already happening.


  101. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 21:16 #

    Ah yes. Now I see what you are saying.And I have definitely seen women do this. In fact, I would say women are actively encouraged to choose their spouses on the sole basis of feelings and nothing else, which is indescribably stupid.

    I had the lovely Jane Austen to teach me how to choose a husband. You don’t allow feelings to develop until AFTER you know your beloved is suitable in every other way.

    That’s just sensible.


  102. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 21:19 #

    Well, I had an affair with a German married woman, 41 at that time, I was 39. Hubby was, in her own words, a very handsome asshole, who treated like crap. He was even violent to her. Physically violent. She was an extremely educated and professional woman. And very attractive. And she was married with this caveman. She complained a lot about hubby but she never leaved him. And the most funny thing is that she was the breadwinner because hubby was almost retarded. But was “handsome and masculine”.
    But he cheated on hubby with me, and I was more “civilized”. She told me I was “very nice”. She told me “I love you but I like my hubby”, and “I feel pity about hubby, but he is so handsome” a lot of times. I told her to keep both. And she did. For a while. Finally she went back to hubby 100%. maybe she still cheating on hubby with civilized men.
    The funny thing is that she was tired of the asshole and cheated with the “nice guy”. Use to be the opposite.


  103. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 21:25 #

    Trophy hubby.


  104. princesspixiepointless June 10, 2013 at 21:25 #

    He still gets a bit of the bitch. Like the story of the frog and scorpion one cannot hide one’s true colours.

    And he can still be an ass.


    And that’s ok. Because its not horrid or threatening. And I get it, as it has more to do with lack of freedom. Or being in a long term relationship and feeling bound.

    I tried to be nice. In my early 20’s I was surrounded my feminists that would yell if I made any one a sand which.


  105. feeriker June 10, 2013 at 21:25 #

    I strongly suspect that “Big Bad Jim” is a she. No man living in today’s western society would ever make such a ridiculous blanket statement and expect any other sentient man to take it seriously.


  106. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 21:28 #

    You have a fixation about “fat women”. 🙂 That is really funny.
    In States there is a lot of hot fat women (BBWs) right? and they have a lot of fit men mad about them. Or so it seems. I am not in States since 1992.


  107. Radical Suburbanite June 10, 2013 at 21:31 #

    I’m new to the official manosphere though I have described myself as anti-feminist for years. But I definitely see the resentment you’re talking about. I guess what I really worry about is a further degradation of marriage and healthy male-female interactions. I’m not sure what that would look like but I’m betting it won’t be pretty.


  108. Radical Suburbanite June 10, 2013 at 21:34 #

    OMG! That is awesome.


  109. thehumanscorch June 10, 2013 at 21:48 #

    “In today’s day and age, it seems to me that unless your wife finds you so sexually attractive she is begging you to penetrate her every single day, YOU. LOSE. The only way to keep a marriage together is that the woman is strongly sexually attracted to you. It isn’t enough for her to like you, or for you to be good company, or make good money, or have a good skill. For lack of a better phrase, she has to want to fuck you all the time. If she doesn’t, it’s not going to work.”



  110. LostSailor June 10, 2013 at 21:50 #

    Keep in mind, RS, the manosphere is much bigger than the MRA movement and has many different facets. Heartiste, whom JB quotes in the OP, could in no way really be considered an MRA.

    But the growing backlash really isn’t necessarily against women per se but mainly against feminist and feminism. The thing is that there are many women out there who would never identify themselves as feminists and might even resent the suggestion, but at the same time, like Blue Pill men, have been living so long in the cultural miasma of feminism, that it’s seeped in through the pores. Becoming more alpha (learning game) is a way to navigate those waters while seeking out the more Red Pill women, assuming that is what a man wants.

    Whether this will be good or bad for male-female relations or marriage, I have no idea. It depends on how pessimistic and/or cynical you want to be. The feminists will certainly fight back, but given their escalation of rhetoric over the last decade or so (even the last year or so), they’re in danger of edging into parody of themselves. This may or may not open the eyes of the not-so-indoctrinated. But coupled with what could be a looming financial crisis bigger than before (don’t get me started, we’d be here all day) and we could see a complete collapse of the current unsustainable culture. Which actually could be a good thing for marriage; when you need to work together to survive, you tend to do what’s necessary to make relationships succeed…


  111. zykos June 10, 2013 at 21:53 #

    It’s already pretty ugly, and I doubt it can get much worse for men before the men passing the laws that enabled this mess realize they too will get to suffer a great deal. So who do you worry about? Women? Most of them are actively part of what’s going on and deserve everything coming to them. For the rest, like I said, men are not stupid and they do want relationships. The good women, if they learn to restrain their hypergamy, will find good men who will want to stick around.


  112. feeriker June 10, 2013 at 21:55 #

    There’s certainly no mystery here. This is another one of those “you’d-have-to-have-been-in-a-coma-for-your-entire-adult-life-not-to-know-this” facts. We certainly don’t need for any woman to ADMIT it – although that would be tasty icing on the cake.

    The key to dealing with this is simply to recognize it for what it is and stop trying to please her. You can’t. You stand a better chance of successfully dividing a random integer by zero. She knows this. True, she’s not going to stop bitching and shrieking about the fact that you don’t “ever listen to me” or “you never understand me,” but she can’t help this anymore than the coyotes on the prairie at the edge of my property can stop howling in the middle of the night. It’s part of her nature.

    Results may vary, but what has always worked for me is the “tune out.” Wait until she again behaves in some way that approaches rational (or as close as she’s likely to get to it) and then revisit the subject of whatever has pricked her ire. It’s not likely that you’ll ever fully discover the real source of the problem, but you can hopefully get just enough out of her to maybe meet her half way – for the moment. Until her mood changes yet again.


  113. thehumanscorch June 10, 2013 at 21:55 #

    So, how many different times, and in how many different ways, do we have to say it?

    The pussy must be in a constant state of lubrication, different levels at different times. If that doesn’t happen, it will not work long term, she will lose interest, and dump you in a heartbeat for someone that makes her wet. Literally DOES. NOT. MATTER. how much YOU love HER, or provide for her, or show her kindness.

    I, however, claim equal rights. So when you women are fat, old, past your prime, hair is natty, titties sag, and you look gross naked, then you need to understand that he will dump you for a nice ripe 19 year old. He wants to dump you for a woman that still makes the cock rock hard. I just don’t get why that’s so hard to understand both ways.


  114. Emma June 10, 2013 at 21:57 #

    LOL…Delta Force Operator which in my book is synonymous with “ohmygodwekuckass oh yes league”


  115. Steven Bennett June 10, 2013 at 21:58 #

    Oooo, that’s some ice, man. I cannot find the link, but it in the personal realm I’ve had it confirmed by a sex therapist I know, that women’s mode of sexual experience is narcissistic, while the men’s mode is relational. Now, those actual words — narcissistic, relational — have so much colloquial baggage that the connotation can blow a reader off the page. But in sex therapy nomenclature it translates into women being turned on by how much they are desired, while men are turned on by the women. Make sense? I gotta find that link/info a log it in my ‘keepers’ folder.


  116. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 22:01 #

    Oh honey, that’s what blowjobs and blindfolds are for!



  117. judgybitch June 10, 2013 at 22:03 #

    Ooh. That is fascinating!

    I sense a future post. Will have to get reading….


  118. tarzanwannabe June 10, 2013 at 22:08 #

    “La donna e mobile”.

    Yeah, already having that discussion with my 9yo son. His 3rd grade GF dropped him, picked him back up, and dropped him again. He had the sense to tell her “thanks but no more.” “Daddy, why did she change? I haven’t. But I don’t want to have a GF that does that.” (Proud-Daddy-R-Us)

    “Herr Friedrich again: “Men are just a way for women not a goal, but what are women for men?”. Clearly: a goal.”

    I hear Nick Krauser’s ‘London Real’ interview in which he state “men deal with reality directly, women deal with reality through men.” He wasn’t waxing political but explained this is a result of our biological defaults being men=builders, women=bearers.


  119. princesspixiepointless June 10, 2013 at 22:12 #

    Really? You have that much energy? Well done! Eye roll.
    We get married, become partners with the people we have x,y,z in common with and enjoy the same sexual rhythm.

    I am willing to be wrong here.

    It’s nice my other half tolerates art and stuff I like, but I am with him for the sex.
    Not the mad crazy young sex, but the comfortable I love you crazy sex.
    And he is nice.
    He loves our family.

    I thought about straying a few weeks ago. And realised. He is the man I’d go after. And 2. (+6hrs) stopped making sense.

    But that’s it.
    We all want someone that gets us. Another person that understands us, just a little?
    A bit of debate, figuring out what’s true and worthwhile.
    someone that likes or loves being physically close.
    Those small huge moments.
    That let us
    Feel alive


  120. deti June 10, 2013 at 22:24 #


    I think I can clarify this.

    Scorch took that from one of my quotes.

    What I’m saying here is that a wife needs to be strongly sexually attracted to her husband. No, they’re not fucking all the time.

    But there is a hard attraction; a pulling, a drawing toward each other. And that attraction, that pull, is overtly and unmistakably sexual in nature. It is romance, it is sexual, it is sex, it is eros-type love.

    It is not just “I like him, I like being around him”, or “I like his company” or “I think he’s nice” or even “He makes me feel safe and secure”. It’s “I like his body, I am pulled to him; I want his body next to mine, I want his body inside mine.” She is pulled to him, drawn to him.


  121. deti June 10, 2013 at 22:33 #


    Re “Fat women”:

    Couple of things here.

    There are a lot of overweight women in the US. Probably fully half of all women in the US are overweight.

    There are NOT a “lot of hot fat women” or “BBWs”. Most overweight women are not hot. In fact most women could improve their SMVs at least one or two points by slimming down.

    The so-called “BBW” fixation is really a niche pr0n fetish. No there are not a “lot of fit men” who love BBWs. It’s a niche, a fetish. Fat women are touted in the US as “attractive” because of the fat (women) acceptance movement. A few men like large women. Most men do not find fat women sexually attractive. Fit men who have their pick of women will not go for BBWs.

    Most overweight women are able to find men to date, have sex with, and marry them, because overweight women comprise the vast, vast majority of sexually available women. Thus, men simply accept what is available to them and what is on offer.


  122. deti June 10, 2013 at 22:36 #


    Re “Fat women”:

    Couple of things here.

    There are a lot of overweight women in the US. Probably fully half of all women in the US are overweight.

    There are NOT a “lot of hot fat women” or “BBWs”. Most overweight women are not hot. In fact most women could improve their SMVs at least one or two points by slimming down.

    The so-called “BBW” fixation is really a niche pr0n fetish. No there are not a “lot of fit men” who love BBWs. It’s a niche, a fetish. Fat women are touted in the US as “attractive” because of the fat (women) acceptance movement. A few men like large women. Most men do not find fat women sexually attractive. Fit men who have their pick of women will not go for BBWs.

    Most overweight women are able to find men to date, have sex with, and marry them, because overweight women comprise the vast, vast majority of sexually available women. Thus, men simply accept what is available to them and what is on offer.


  123. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 22:44 #

    Sure. That is why marrying is a cul de sac both ways.
    “First half of their life, men are cuckolds, second half they are johns”
    Arthur Schopenhauer.

    An attractive wife is going to still attractive and sexually desirable until 50. And hubby will not loose interest in her. Of course. And lot of men will be very interested in her. But she will loose interest in hubby since the second week of marriage, because women are not constant beings. And she will see a lot of men around eating her with the eyes. And she will cheat. That is for sure. Especially if she is a professional woman and makes business travels. And is better for hubby to get over it.
    But, since the wife hits 50, hubby will cheat.
    This is life law.


  124. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 22:51 #

    It makes sense.
    I think Adele is very hot, anyway. Well, she is British.


  125. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 23:00 #

    Makes lot of sense. Extremely interesting.


  126. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 23:04 #

    Better your son starts knowing a couple of words on women before he hits teenhood. You will prevent him from suffering a lot.


  127. MC June 10, 2013 at 23:19 #

    I initially cared about the word “alpha” but the word really doesn’t mean anything anymore. I mean it comes from a pack mentality of being the leader of the pack, but who cares about leading a pack? Or following one?

    With that meaning, how are you an alpha, if I don’t give a shit about following you?

    I guess it could mean “dominant characteristics.” A man who is the strong silent type, or a charismatic man, can both be considered dominant, and alpha, with that meaning.

    But a lot of this alpha/beta talk has turned into “you complimented her more then once a week? You’re so beta bro.” “You’re going to be a father and have an impact on future generations? Get the fuck outta here with that beta shit bro.”

    At least to me, the word now has a douche from the Jersey Shore feel to it.


  128. Liz June 10, 2013 at 23:32 #

    That sounds a lot like my husband.
    He walks into a room and all the women ovulate. (he’s in his early forties now, but it’s still true).


  129. Spaniard June 10, 2013 at 23:34 #

    He saw you through your bullshit. But I guess he loved the bullshit too.


  130. Liz June 10, 2013 at 23:58 #

    I don’t personally like the terms ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’. A true “alpha” is not an asshole. An asshole is an insecure person trying to come across as “alpha”. It’s a way of faking confidence (sometimes even to oneself….look at the teen years when almost everyone is an asshole to hide numerous insecurities). Women do this too, and they are cunts. If you’re an asshole to attract women you will attract those types (and there are a LOT of them so…merry Christmas, I guess?).

    The best description of (what I consider) a true “alpha” is described in the book Winds of War. Alpha men are men of action. They are genetic winners. The character Slote (a man of inaction who characterizes himself as a ‘man of thought’) described it as follows (the Minsk documents were evidence of war atrocities which had taken place in Minsk):

    “As for the Henrys, father and son, the puzzle is simply enough resolved after all. I saw the answer in the past few hours. They both have an instinct for action, and the presence of mind that goes with it. Byron displayed these traits in moments of physical danger. His father probably would too. But I’ve just seen him act in more sophisticated and subtle situations, requiring quick thinking, hardihood, and tact. It is not easy to keep one’s head in confronting a personage like Stalin, who has an aura like a large lump of radium, powerful, invisible, and poisonous. Victor Henry managed.

    On reflection, I can understand why the ladies like such men. The man of action protects, feeds – and presumably fecundates, QED – more vigorously and reliably than the man of thought.

    Possibly one can’t change one’s nature. Still one can perhaps learn and grow. Captain Henry suggested that I disregard orders and expose the Minsk documents to Fred Fearing or some newspaperman. Such an act goes entirely against my grain; and entirely for that reason, I intend to do it.”

    Slote had it mostly right, but a man of action is also a man of thought (thoughtless action for action’s sake would be stupid, the opposite of admirable).


  131. The Cul-De-Sac Hero (@TheCulDeSacHero) June 11, 2013 at 00:43 #

    The Sexual Marketplace as described by the PUA crowd is yet another reason that I’m glad to be married (happily). Reading about it is intriguing, but, does not sound appealing in the slightest. No crazy sluts, thank you.


  132. Apple June 11, 2013 at 00:47 #

    You’re trying to lead Emma. Trying to assume some Evo Psych BS that just confirms “Game” or whatever lameass thing. IMO a very small minority of women really get off on casual sex. They like some aspect of it… the risk, the thrill, they’re just hypersexual. I do not think it is because they want to get impregnated with some alpha’s seed. That sounds more like male wank thinking than reality. Most women who are into casual sex are pretty clear about not wanting to get pregnant at all.

    The women who don’t fit that minority of really into casual sex for some reason tend to be insecure and try to have casual sex because they want a man to like them and are afraid he won’t maintain interest if they don’t put out. Over and over and over again they find themselves “pumped and dumped”.

    Most women who actually have a healthy amount of self esteem do not do casual sex or one night stands.


  133. Liz June 11, 2013 at 01:11 #

    Ha ha! That is great. 🙂


  134. Marlo Rocci June 11, 2013 at 01:26 #

    The modern man is simply evolving to match his environment. The PUA community is simply a response to self centered harpies that feminism has left us. You act in a self centered manner, you’ll get self centered behavior back at you.


  135. feeriker June 11, 2013 at 01:35 #

    “First half of their life, men are cuckolds, second half they are johns”

    Arthur Schopenhauer.



  136. LostSailor June 11, 2013 at 03:57 #

    Aaaannd, here comes the feminist non-argument. Feminists have to dismiss Evo Psych out of hand because they absolutely can’t engage it. EV involves actual science: a proposed hypothesis, designed experiment, actual investigation, and results reported in peer-reviewed journals. So, since they can’t engage science, any mention of EV must be termed bullshit and ignored. Unfortunately, it won’t work.

    No one ever said that women who like casual sex want to get pregnant, at least until they find an alpha they want to make babies with. But good luck with that. No one also never said most women were logical about it.

    Then there’s the “feminist logic” argument that only women of low self-esteem want casual sex at the same time they argue that women enjoying sex just for pleasure is female empowerment. Gee, so which is it?

    The truth is that when done properly, most feminists will never know they’re being gamed.

    Feminism: Delusion and Solipsism Is Our Core Business (TM)


  137. dinictus June 11, 2013 at 06:30 #

    Depends largely on the beholder, and what segment of society.

    If taking it for granted that fornication is normal, then, yes, like in prison the most violent murderers get the most respect, in promiscuous society, the men who get the most from women while giving the least in return will be hailed as alphas.

    And women who garner maximum financial gains for being promiscuous are hailed as heroes by the female side of promiscuous society.

    For some of us, however, sex and marriage aren’t tied together with a short rope, they’re actually synonymous.

    So, the promiscuous male and the promiscuous female really don’t enter into our lives.


  138. Gem (@Gemmarees) June 11, 2013 at 07:32 #

    There’s nothing crazier than a raving radfem, but a raving MRA is about the same level of fuckwittery.

    People who consistently think and talk in terms of generalisation are seldom happy.


  139. Exfernal June 11, 2013 at 09:24 #

    My reply to feminism, as a man, is simple – opposing
    indoctrination with
    evidence (or
    more evidence, if necessary).

    What is your reply, as an anti-feminist, to the
    Your Textfeminist message?


  140. Liz June 11, 2013 at 12:38 #

    “That said, SOME women often love vain, selfish jerks.”

    Fixed that for you. 🙂

    I think there might be a correlation/causation problem with PUA tactics. Yes, SOME women like assholes. Those women are attracted to men who are assholes, so those types of tactics make those types come running. “Asshole gamers” then decide that this is necessary to obtain women, and find the types who are attracted to those sorts of men. It isn’t surprising that the people who try such tactics tend to hate women more and more over time and “experience”. The problem builds on itself.

    80 percent of communication is body language. Body language can be modified to a certain extent and most people who try PUA techniques know how to use it to their ostensible advantage to a certain degree. But micro-expressions are ever present, and people process those on a primal level (causes a sort of ‘gut reaction’, especially in women who rely on feelings and emotion more than men). If a person really doesn’t like women, they can sense it even when their forebrains are telling them something else.

    So I am not a fan of PUA tactics. Athol Kay, he’s great. I take advice from people with proven relationship success over time. A person wouldn’t take the advice of a PUA guy who had little to no experience actually picking up women, so why would anyone take advice on longterm relationships from a person whose idea of a longterm relationship is two months?


  141. Mr. Krishan June 11, 2013 at 15:13 #

    Mrs. JB, there’s a big difference between being an Alpha DATER and being an Alpha PERSON. Heartiste is an Alpha DATER; he’s a PUA. This means he uses shallow and short-term tactics to get laid. Period. His tactics work on a sizeable portion of the women because a sizeable percentage of women are vain, shallow, stupid, etc.

    The same could be said of a similar percentage of men. But nobody cares about them, and they’re irrelevant to this conversation.

    The other valuable term is an Alpha PERSON. A person who is not a pushover, who does make decisions, who in essence Owns Their Shit. You know, a person who is self-actualized, mature, a leader, proactive. In other words, the opposite of a pandering, simpering, reactive beta provider.

    You don’t have to be a dick to be alpha (though you’ll be called one often enough regardless). You just have to stand up for yourself, to not be afraid of confrontation, to not be afraid to do the right thing. That’s being alpha.

    Or, to paraphrase some of your past posts, to truly be alpha, a man just needs to be a real man.


  142. deti June 11, 2013 at 16:11 #

    Most women don’t consider what is good for them in a man until they experience in a painful way what is bad for them.


  143. Radical Suburbanite June 11, 2013 at 17:01 #

    I don’t take anything Gloria Alred says seriously. Words like “bigot,” “racist,” and “sexist” are thrown around so carelessly these days. They don’t even make a dent in my thinking anymore.


  144. Bob Wallace June 11, 2013 at 17:07 #

    Now why is it thinkers in the past never used such words as “alpha” and “beta”? Perhaps they don’t exist? What most of the Lost Boys of the Manosphere think of as an “alpha” has traditionally been called a “cad.”

    Alpha really means the canine Alpha couple, which were the only couple that bred to limit the number of puppies. Transfer that to humans, and what you get is a patriarch.

    Thinking that people like Vox Day, Roissy and Roosh know what they are talking about is a good way to poison your soul.


  145. M3 June 11, 2013 at 17:19 #

    “Uhm, no. Find something to thank or compliment your partner on EVERY day. That will keep you focused on all her wonderful qualities, and if you can’t find anything nice to say, you should probably be looking for a woman with qualities you admire.”

    Giving compliments must be a reciprocal event. If it’s at all one sided, or the poor shmuck is doling out compliments left right and center.. while she is neither returning compliments, indicators of interest or at the very least.. a nice sammich (:P) then this is what we call a doormat and a supplicating tard.

    While no one should keep a scorecard on these events of compliment.. at anytime one side feels they are doing all the doting while the receiver leeches and gives back nothing.. it’s time to step back and apply some withdrawal game.

    There is also a pretty good rule in the sphere regarding level of interest. If your interest in the woman ever goes over her interest in you.. given the men chase/women choose dynamic.. that’s a losing proposition for many men.

    I compliment my girl quite often.. but that’s because there’s no shortage of her making sure i know i am extremely important to her and in the way she responds to me.


  146. RadicalCentrist June 11, 2013 at 17:27 #

    I love you.


  147. Goober June 11, 2013 at 17:45 #

    First: From the sounds of things, most of the men commenting on this posting have a horrible taste in women and are dating the wrong women. If you’re using the terms “vain, vapid, feral, selfish, and shallow” to describe the women you are dating, maybe the problem isn’t with women, but in your choice of which women to associate with?

    Second: There is no definition of “alpha” because everyone has a different idea of what “alpha” means. To some, it means sexing women without committing to them, ever, or without reciprocating anything in the relationship, or recognizing that your partner has needs just like you do, and that it might be nice to work as hard to fulfill hers as you expect her to in fulfilling yours (and no, this isn’t a problem if you go away from the feral women in point one and start dating real human beings). To some, it is an innate quality that just “is” and ends up meaning an alpha is a person that they’d like to follow, which is more or less the opposite of the first definition.

    Third: the term “beta” is thrown around as if it is an insult, when, depending on your definition of alpha, it might not necessarily be. Consider that many people think fatherhood is a sign of being “beta.” Like a previous commenter said, they have this “Jersey Shore” idea of alpha-ness that requires them to be constantly gaming and never committing, and having kids is “like, some serious beta shit, bro!”

    In my opinion, becoming a father, and committing to providing for and defending a helpless soul who can’t provide for herself is the manliest thing I’ve ever done. If that means I’m “beta” then I can’t, for the life of me, figure out how I’m anything other than proud to be beta. In fact, I’m working to become even more beta right now – hoping to have a second within the year…

    I think the biggest issue is that the definition isn’t pinned down, and there really can’t be one until it gets there.

    Is being alpha synonymous with being a perpetually adolescent man-child that lives his entire life gaming people into doing what he wants them to do? Or is it synonymous with being a leader; not a push-over, but someone who people want to follow, and emulate and strive to be with?

    Because the former sounds an awful lot like another selfish, self-centered, “me first and fuck everybody else” lifestyle that we all rant about daily on here – feminism. It also sounds pretty destructive to the human condition, and contrary to our strong, evolutionarily reinforced biological imperatives. Also, just like feminism… huh…

    The latter sounds like what I’d like to think alpha means – a man who knows how to lead, how to respect himself but never forget that sometimes that means putting others ahead of him for the mutual benefit of them all. Sacrifice, hard work, leadership, and attitude. That’s an alpha to me.

    We used to have a more simple term for it – we called them men.


  148. Leap of a Beta June 11, 2013 at 18:05 #

    I would say not even then. They simply down a gallon of ice cream, drink a bottle of wine, have a quick hookup, and go right back at em.


  149. Apple June 11, 2013 at 19:42 #

    How about treating me like an individual human being instead of a category? Do you think you can handle that? I am not a feminist and do believe there is a lot to evolutionary psychology BUT and here is the big but… it has been COMPLETELY twisted by MRA types and particularly PUA types. Most of these guys are not in any way scientists. They don’t even understand most of the basics of evolution, period. And many of them, ironically are fundamentalist religious nuts who dont’ agree with evolution, except when it suits their purpose, to blame women for not giving their penis attention.

    There is nothing wrong with women enjoying the pleasure of sex, but I believe it should be inside the context of monogamy, preferably marriage. You might get farther in life if you stop being such a misogynist and thinking all women fit a “type” and any woman who disagrees with anything you think is a “feminist”. Maybe she’s just a human being with actual thoughts in her head that differ from yours.

    re: Most feminists not knowing they are being “gamed”. Perhaps so, but it seems that “Game” is something that is suited for the bar scene. Happily, I’m married to a man who thinks MRAs and PUAs must all have tiny penises to be so insecure they need to be “taught” how to behave like an alpha. (Here’s a clue… true alpha-ness can’t be taught. You either are or you aren’t.)

    Frankly, if this is the quality of the male of the species, should I ever end up widowed, I will happily remain single for the rest of my life. Masturbation is a wonderful thing. I don’t have time for anybody who wants to “manage me” or “manipulate me” or “game me”. Who can’t see me as a valuable human being and deal with me as such.


  150. Liz June 11, 2013 at 19:45 #

    Well said!


  151. Apple June 11, 2013 at 19:51 #

    Do you have the “tenacity of a wolverine” like this guy, I wonder?


  152. freetofish June 11, 2013 at 20:25 #

    While I agree with you many points Goober, you are completely ignoring the situation on the ground. PUA’s, game theory, what ever you want to call it is men reacting to the realities in today’s society.

    They are reacting to the fact that young women are encouraged to forgo marriage and child bearing until later and later in life. What exactly are men to be doing during this time? Patiently waiting until these young women finally decide they have had their fun and we should “man up”. Where not even 30 years ago they would be seeing signs to adopt adult responsibilities in their early 20s, establishing a career to provide for a family, now its delayed until their 30’s.

    Further, for all your talk about how having a kid was the essence of “being a man”. I call it a suckers bet. Maybe in my Grandfathers time that was the case. Now, it is impossible to be the man my grandfather was, when the Sword of Damocles (no fault divorce) hangs over the head of every family man.

    No matter what you think of your wife, the fact remains she can, at any time for no reason at all hit you with the nuclear option. There is nothing, not one god damn fucking thing, you can do to stop her taking the house, the kids, and 1/2 or your accumulated wealth because all of a sudden she is “unhappy” and succumbed to the whispers.

    You are betting your entire future on her not being like the vast majority of the current female population. You have better odds taking every cent you have ever and while ever earn, going to vegas and betting on black or red at the roulette wheel.


  153. Radical Suburbanite June 11, 2013 at 21:25 #

    It’s baffling to me how men who take care of their families are called “beta providers.” Seems to me that it’s a pretty alpha thing to be the head of a family. My husband has definitely become a more take-charge guy as he has had to shoulder more responsibility. His best friend, on the other hand, is 40-years-old, never married and has never had a long term relationship. The guy can barely take care of himself and is most certainly no alpha– though he, bafflingly, believes otherwise.


  154. freetofish June 11, 2013 at 22:07 #

    They are called “beta providers” because that is what the vast majority are. Before no fault divorce and the you go grrrl culture we live in, this wasn’t a bad thing at all. These were the guys Fathers approved of their daughters marrying. They were solid, dependable, committed family men. Not the bad boy, cad etc. These are the men that historically worked their ass off to provide surplus in exchange for passing on their genes. The builders of civilization as we know it.

    The problem is today’s feminist culture, not the type of man. They are playing a fools game and most don’t know it. They are the guy women settle down with after having “their fun” in their 20’s jumping from man to man to “find themselves”. These guys get all the responsibility that has always been associated with being a family man but none of the benefits that used to entail. Respect, being the Captain as JB like to call it, a loving committed wife etc etc. You ladies who come here are the exception to the norm, I hope you realize that. Probably less than 10% of the female population under 40 thinks and acts as you do.

    Then after the kids are born most of these guys get blindsided with divorce papers by these women. Gone are the house and kids because his Opera watching, Atlantic reading feminist wife decides its time to eat,pray,love or “find her groove” like stella.

    What’s left to him is a 1 bdrm apt he can barely afford due to child support payments. If he’s lucky he see’s his kids one night a week and every other weekend. All the while he continues to bust his ass to provide for his children because he bought into what a “real man” was.


  155. Liz June 11, 2013 at 22:10 #

    Agreed. My husband recently took our two oldest boys hunting. They are very adept at shooting, and each downed a wild boar with a single shot. Then, they skinned em and did um, whatever icky things they do to killed game before they bring ’em home I don’t know I’m just a girl (he,he). That was beta apparently. By contrast, going to the bar and gaming strange female imbeciles who might be stupid and slutty and drunk enough to bed you the moment you meet is comparatively alpha. Sure thing.


  156. Clover June 11, 2013 at 22:14 #

    Am I the only person who thinks some ‘beta’ traits are totally sexy? I love being offered backrubs and getting breakfast in bed on the weekends, I love being taken dress shopping before a special occasion, or out for coffee ‘just because’. I like being asked what I’d like to do sometimes, not just being told what’s happening, and I like my interests being taken seriously, not brushed off as nonsense. I like snuggling up in bed and just talking, I like a man who can talk about his feelings. Lots of beta behaviour is hot, in my book!
    That’s not to say it isn’t also sexy to be picked up and carried off to bed, to be fair. It’s also nice to have some of the decisions and responsibility out of my hands, and it’s nice to have someone to call me on my bullshit. It’s wonderful to feel protected in rough parts of town, to be smaller and weaker and yet safe. I like being able to trust that he’s right, because I know he’s bright, and that when the pressure is on I don’t have to make it through alone. Most of all, I like being with someone I can truly admire…and I’m guessing this is all more ‘alpha’? (I’m honestly not sure, so correct me if I’m wrong.)
    In my experience, good relationships take real people, who share real interests and values, along with a good dose of lust. For quick pickups, an ‘alpha’ jerk might get the girl…but they’ll only be getting the kind of girl who wants to get laid, which doesn’t seem like an amazing feat to me. For the long game, any kind of pretence isn’t going to hack it, and simple molds won’t fit comfortably. The way I see it, alpha and beta don’t matter as much as simple compatibility.


  157. LostSailor June 11, 2013 at 23:08 #

    What freetofish said, +1.

    RS and Liz, just because you two are lucky to have take-charge husbands doesn’t mean the “beta provider” doesn’t exist. Immediate personal experience isn’t always evidence.

    What freetofish described is real. The beta provider was the bedrock guy that society was built on: the blue-collar guy, the office drone, working at jobs that they might not have really liked, but stuck it out to provide for the wife and kids. But then feminism came along and blue-collar jobs were sent overseas. The office drone still exists but either he’s marrying later to a woman who has established a career and wants a family and often blindsided year in by a divorce or can’t find a wife at all.

    My Dad was a beta-provider. He worked for years and years at a job he didn’t particularly like to provide for my Mom, sister and brother. When I was about 14 I learned that when I was a small child, he had a chance to switch to a better, but riskier, job and turned it down for the stability of the job he had. He was subsequently passed over for promotion after siding with the wrong (though honorable) side in a vicious round of corporate politics. Still he stayed. Fortunately toward the end of his career, he got some high-profile international assignments and while he was held in esteem by most of his colleagues, he eschewed greater success to make sure his family had a stable home. He was a beta-provider, once a good thing though not any more. I honor him for it.

    RS, your husband’s best friend is probably one of these guys. He’s 40 years old and aimless because in the past he would have probably married and slaved away to support a “house” wife and kids, which would give meaning to his life. If he somehow considers himself an “alpha” you’d have to ask whether even though he hasn’t had a long-term relationship, he does have serial short-term relationships. If so, then maybe he can mimic the alpha; if not then he’s delusional.

    And if the latter, the he could use some Game in his life. Liz, your beta-shaming aside, Game is much more than picking up stupid, drunk women in bars. That’s the slur the feminists use. For a man who is clueless about the current social matrix, learning Game is empowering. Even if initially it’s picking up women in bars who will sleep with them; it may not be alpha, but at least he’s getting laid. And that builds confidence, which can often turn into relationship success, if a man is so minded.

    Even one of the original PUAs, Mystery, is now married and has a son.

    So, ladies, you might want to hold off on shaming the beta for trying to better himself until you’ve walked a mile in an incel’s shoes…


  158. Radical Suburbanite June 11, 2013 at 23:32 #

    “Eat, Pray, Love”– barf. I tried to read that book to see what all the fuss was about and couldn’t finish. It was the most egotistic, self-indulgent bunch of garbage I have ever read. So I guess it was tailor made for feminist culture.

    You are right about the no-fault divorce thing. When these women who like to tout the whole woman-as-primary-breadwinner thing start to pay child support to the caregiver fathers, we can have a conversation about equality.


  159. Radical Suburbanite June 11, 2013 at 23:44 #

    Oh I don’t mean to shame anyone who would be put in the beta category. My husband isn’t someone I would classify as fully alpha; he has characteristics of both. I just think that his responsibilities have brought out his alpha traits- but he also picked a risky career and one must alpha-up to survive in those circumstances. My father-in-law retired as a two-star general and I would say he had alpha/beta characteristics in pretty even measure. He was his most alpha at work, but would defer to his wife at home. Pretty normal in my opinion.

    My husband’s friend is an odd duck. He is mostly celibate by choice. He’s a black man who doesn’t really fit into the world he was born into. He’s very clean cut, has a regular job etc., but doesn’t have any interest in women. He’s a big talker who, back in high school, claimed he’d have cars, women, private jets and so on by the time he was 40 but ended up living in a crappy duplex in a bad part of town. He claims to be a driven guy but really has no drive at all. He doesn’t want to work, he just wants to go through the motions and complain when he doesn’t get anywhere.

    The one woman he claims as the “love of his life” is a woman he never even had sex with. He was the classic beta-orbiter for years and tried to play the part of indifferent friend by claiming he wasn’t interested in being a relationship. The woman, being a smart girl, took him at his word and looked elsewhere for marriage. I believe she had her first child last year (he still keeps in touch with her).


  160. Exfernal June 11, 2013 at 23:52 #

    “Trying to assume some Evo Psych BS that just confirms “Game” or whatever lameass thing.”

    free sample then. Is this bit useful for an aspiring womanizer, or not?


  161. Radical Suburbanite June 11, 2013 at 23:58 #

    Oh- I meant to mention that the reason his race is significant is because he’s a weird place because of it. Most of the girls he meets of his own race tend to go for the gangster thug types. Their moms are always trying to get them to date him because he’s single, has a job and doesn’t have any children floating around. Because of that dynamic he isn’t interested in dating black women so when he does date he dates white and hispanic women– to which his mother strenuously objects. So his disinterest may be largely due to the tremendous pain-in-the-ass factor.

    The main disconnect with him is when it comes to his so-called career aspirations. What he claims to want vs. what he’s willing to work for are very, very different. But he’ll tell you he’s a tough, driven guy…


  162. freetofish June 12, 2013 at 00:06 #

    “Game is much more than picking up stupid, drunk women in bars. That’s the slur the feminists use. For a man who is clueless about the current social matrix, learning Game is empowering. Even if initially it’s picking up women in bars who will sleep with them; it may not be alpha, but at least he’s getting laid. And that builds confidence, which can often turn into relationship success, if a man is so minded.”

    Yes, there are many types of game. As a 40 year old never been married guy, I certainly don’t find my life directionless, nor am I unable to care for myself. I’ve been self sufficient and living on my own since my 2nd wave feminist mother imploded the family to go find herself when I was 16.

    I’ve never been a pick up a girl at the bar guy, even in my 20s. I have had many longer term relationships (longest being 4 years) with the slut’s less criticized cousin, the serial monogamous. I’m always upfront that I have no intention of marriage and in only the 4 year case did I even live with them.

    I know it angers feminists to no end and even the married gals here, but certain aspects of game work and work well and it’s not all for one night stand type arrangements.


  163. Liz June 12, 2013 at 00:13 #

    “So, ladies, you might want to hold off on shaming the beta for trying to better himself until you’ve walked a mile in an incel’s shoes…”

    Tell you what, stay away from the shaming of great husbands and fathers for being husbands and fathers and then feel free to get that confidence without a word from me. When you start shaming my man for being a man, that’s when I have some words.


  164. Liz June 12, 2013 at 00:22 #

    Not that he would care, but I’m protective and it does annoy me.


  165. freetofish June 12, 2013 at 00:23 #

    Where did anyone here shame good husbands and fathers? Your projecting.


  166. Radical Suburbanite June 12, 2013 at 00:29 #

    It’s funny. I think you’re reacting to LS’s comments the same way I react to my husband’s friend (the one I mentioned in my other posts). I could care less about his (the friend) disinterest in women or his lack of motivation. What irks me is that he always tries to act as if he’s superior to my husband when my husband blows him out of the water in just about every way possible.

    The only thing the friend has going for him is that he’s somewhat physically intimidating and he always tries to get in my husband’s space and act like a tough guy. My husband is used to it and shrugs it off- but it makes me nuts. The guy is basically a decent guy, but he’s obviously insecure and likes to bolster his self esteem on the back of my husband and there’s no rhyme or reason to it– especially since he flat-out can’t compete with my husband on any level.


  167. Liz June 12, 2013 at 00:45 #

    @freetofish: “Where did anyone here shame good husbands and fathers? Your projecting.”

    -“A “father” is always a beta. Parenthood is a beta condition.”

    -“Testosterone drops once a man commits to a relationship. Testosterone drops once a man becomes a father. These changes are involuntary (blame biology and evolution, if you must), and they are reflected in his behavior. He becomes less dominant – “an alpha” – than once was. His creeping betatude slowly kills the romance and attraction in the relationship”

    “beta-provider”? Being father’s a “sucker’s bet”?

    Is there some other way to interpret this? Being a (good) father is the highest male calling. It isn’t beta, it’s the opposite. Nor is it beta to take care of one’s family and be married to the mother of your children.


  168. Liz June 12, 2013 at 01:14 #

    It does irritate me. I care far less when someone insults me, but don’t call my husband a ‘lesser man’ for having a family. Damn.


  169. Apple June 12, 2013 at 01:52 #

    LOL IMO the issue isn’t necessarily “trying to be appealing to the opposite sex”. Very few women like weak men. But that also is not the same thing as implying every or even most women will go ride the “alpha cock carousel” either. And there is a big difference in just generally being socially aware and appealing and actively trying to manage and manipulate a woman. The first is no different than a woman wearing a dress or lipstick, the second is almost sociopathic in its nature.

    Somebody who sees me and automatically downloads into their brain the “standard software for dealing with women” doesn’t see me as a human being and their “games” won’t work. Mainly because I don’t play to a “script”. I am a unique human being as, probably, are they. Relationships that can’t start with that basic level of respect and humanness are doomed to fail. And the “bar scene” should not be mistaken for being representative of either males or females as a whole.

    I also find it BIZARRE that some men go on about Evo Psych and “how women are” (because apparently we are just a software program that responds predictably to like… everything), and yet… the biological basis for WHY the vast majority of women do NOT like casual sex is blatantly ignored because it doesn’t fit their narrative.

    Oxytocin. Women produce it when they have sex. It chemically/hormonally makes us want to BOND with the man we just slept with. That’s why men never have PUA books trying to teach them how “not to get attached” but the women who write these fun and flirty “casual sex guides for women” are always trying to teach women how not to get emotionally ruined, how not to end up with poor self esteem (assuming their self esteem was okay to begin with), how not to get too attached. Women biologically WANT TO BOND with the man they have sex with. This is why “in general” casual sex for women cannot work.

    Any man who wants to start in on “evo psych” with me who is going to then blatantly ignore the role of oxytocin in bonding for the female of the species is not being intellectually dishonest and is only interested in servicing his dick.

    Add to that, STD risk and pregnancy risk and it’s really not a wonder why any halfway attractive woman with good self esteem is going to largely avoid the casual sex scene.


  170. Apple June 12, 2013 at 01:54 #

    Correction: “Is not being intellectually HONEST” (not dishonest.)


  171. thehumanscorch June 12, 2013 at 03:02 #

    Well. Again.
    It’s rather obvious that the women that are pushing back against the “beta shaming”(which is a term I disagree with) and believe that being a good husband & father is a higher calling/alpha cadre
    have no idea how much in the minority that attitude is, and why many men have problems believing them.


  172. Goober June 12, 2013 at 03:39 #

    They are reacting to the fact that young women are encouraged to forgo marriage and child bearing until later and later in life. What exactly are men to be doing during this time? Patiently waiting until these young women finally decide they have had their fun and we should “man up”.

    I guess I’m not really seeing a huge shortage of women willing to marry and have kids at a young age from where I’m sitting, but maybe that’s because I’m sitting outside of the big damn cities – the dens of iniquity that they are. I reiterate my above stated point that if you’re having this trouble, maybe you’re just dating the wrong women?

    No matter what you think of your wife, the fact remains she can, at any time for no reason at all hit you with the nuclear option. There is nothing, not one god damn fucking thing, you can do to stop her taking the house, the kids, and 1/2 or your accumulated wealth because all of a sudden she is “unhappy” and succumbed to the whispers.

    And no matter what you think of your car, its front wheel could fall off on your way to work tomorrow and you could die in a fiery car accident.

    We mitigate the risk by maintaining our car and buying one that is of good quality. I mitigate the risk by marrying a woman that isn’t going to destroy me on a whim because that isn’t the type of person that she is. I can tell this because I truly got to know her as a human, rather than some idealized version of what i thought she was because she would screw me. I also got to know her because i acted like a human to her and gave her the chance to reciprocate – I didn’t game her and manipulate her, creating a wholly artificial situation that would change the second I stopped gaming later on down the road.

    Besides, are you seriously telling me that because a woman has the ability to hurt you, that you should allow fear of that to dictate your entire life, your choices for happiness, and the way that you treat people around you? THAT’S alpha?

    Because that doesn’t sound very alpha to me.

    You are betting your entire future on her not being like the vast majority of the current female population.

    See, this is where you and I differ, and possibly it is because of our difference in geography more than a difference in who we are: I don’t think the “vast majority” of women are like this. I don’t even think the “majority” of them are. If you do, then perhaps it is time for a bit of introspection to figure out why so many of the women you’re meeting are horrible people. Maybe a change in scenery is in order?


  173. Goober June 12, 2013 at 03:40 #

    See Liz’s post. It didn’t just happen once, but several times, where fatherhood was described as a “beta” condition.


  174. Radical Suburbanite June 12, 2013 at 03:57 #

    I agree. It takes a lot of man to that.


  175. Radical Suburbanite June 12, 2013 at 03:57 #

    *to do that.


  176. dorsey47 June 12, 2013 at 10:23 #

    If the wheels fell off of 50% of cars, congress would be investigating.


  177. Liz June 12, 2013 at 11:38 #

    The following is an old “joke” I’ve seen thrown around pilot circles. It’s extremely funny in a comedy noir sort of way, because it’s a stereotype and sadly accurate a great deal of the time:

    Subject: Life of a Pilot

    22 years old: Graduated from college. Go to military flight school. Become hot shot fighter pilot. Get married.

    25 years old: Have 1st kid. Now hot shot fighter jock getting shot at in war. Just want to get back to USA in one piece. Get back to USA as primary flight instructor pilot. Get bored. Volunteer for war again.

    29 years old: Get back from war all tuckered out. Wants out of military.

    30 years old: Join airline. World is your oyster.

    31 years old: Buy flashy car, house and lots of toys. Get over the military poverty feeling.

    32 years old: Divorce boring 1st wife. Pay child support and maintenance. Drink lots of booze and screw around while looking for 2nd wife.

    33 years old: Furloughed. Join military reserve unit and fly for fun. Repeat above for a few more years.

    35 years old: Airline recall. More screwing around but looking forward to a good marriage and settling down.

    36 years old: Marry young spunky 25 year old flight attendant.

    37 years old: Buy another house. Gave first one to first wife.

    38 years old: Give in to second wife to have more kids. Father again. Wife concerned about “risky” military Reserve flying so you resign commission.

    39 years old: Now a captain. Hooray! Upgrade house, buy boat, small single engine airplane and even flashier cars.

    42 years old: 2nd wife runs off with wealthy investment banker but still wants to share house (100%).

    43 years old: Settle with wife #2 and resolve to stay away from women forever. Seek a position as a check Captain for 10% pay override to pay mounting bills. Move into 1 bedroom apartment with window air conditioners.

    44 years old: Company resizes and you’re returned to copilot status. 25% pay cut. Become simulator instructor for 10% override pay.

    49 years old: Captain again. Move into 2-bedroom luxury apartment with central air conditioning.

    50 years old: Meet sexy Danish model on International trip. She loves you and says you are very “beeeeg!”

    51 years old: Marry sexy Danish model for wife #3. Buy big house, boat, twin engine airplane and upgrade cars.

    52 years old: Sexy model wants kids (not again). Resolve to get vasectomy.

    54 years old: Try to talk wife out of kids, but presto, she’s pregnant. She says she got sick after taking the pill. Accident; sorry, won’t happen again.

    55 years old: Father of triplets.

    56 years old: Wife #3 wants very big house, bigger boat and very flashy cars, “worried” about your private flying and wants you to sell twin engine airplane. You give in. You buy a motorcycle and join motorcycle club.

    57 years old: Make rash investments to try and have enough money for retirement.

    59 years old: Lose money on rash investment and get audited by the IRS. You have to fly 100% International night trips just to keep up with child support and alimony to wife #1 and #2.

    60 years old: Wife #3 (sexy model) says you’re too damned old and no fun. She leaves. She takes most of your assets. You’re forced to retire due to Age 60 rule. No money left.

    61 years old: Now Captain on a non-schedule South American 727 freight outfit and living in a non-air conditioned studio apartment directly underneath the final approach to runway 9 at Miami Int’l. You have interesting” Hispanic neighbors who ask you if you’ve ever flown DC-3′s.

    65 years old: Lose FAA medical and get job as sim instructor. Don’t look forward to years of getting up at 2 AM for 3 AM sim in every god-forsaken town you train in due to the fact your carrier can find cheap, off-hours sim time at various Brand X Airlines.

    70 years old: Hotel alarm clock set by previous FedEx crewmember goes off at 1:00 AM. Have heart attack and die with smile on face. Happy at last!

    Ain’t aviation great?

    Question…was the pilot above a victim of women, or a victim of his own poor choices? I’d say the second one. And that particular hypothetical guy is what I’d call a beta, though he had no trouble whatsoever obtaining women, and taking care of his family isn’t what made him a beta.


  178. Liz June 12, 2013 at 13:08 #

    Just to add, since I’m going on a road trip and won’t be online for many days….
    I am against divorce theft and no-fault. There are two ends of the spectrum on that. At one end, the sane end, it’s a cautionary tale to choose very wisely or even not at all. At the other end, the equivalent of Howard Hughes hiding in the closet and mumbling to others about the germs (and how ipso facto stupid/inferior/et al everyone else is who doesn’t fear the germs as much).

    Yes, there are germs. People who go out and get the Jay Oh Bee done and raise a family properly are not to be disparaged. Because it’s a part of human nature to form a cohesive unit and want to raise a family together, and it’s a good part, and society is better served by people doing it, and doing it properly.


  179. thehumanscorch June 12, 2013 at 13:09 #

    Once again, you’re clearly speaking from your bubble.


  180. M3 June 12, 2013 at 13:36 #

    I don’t disagree with your assertion her Liz.

    It’s just in today’s world, it’s hard to tell which bacteria are the good kind (like those tasty buggers in Activia yogurt) vs. the kind that will kill you E.Coli style. They all look the same under the microscope, it’s only after they’re in your system that you find out.

    And in today’s world there is no protection against it (for men anyways). While i recognize you and your hubby are the good ones.. should you mentally flip out tomorrow for whatever reason, you could ruin him completely on nothing more than just.. ‘im tired of this, i want something more’. And that’s it.

    Men are being asked to take a gamble on love, life and family with the system stacked against them.

    I agree that families are important and required for civilization. But one wonders how many women would eagerly and willingly lock themselves into a marriage today if the roles were reversed and men could destroy marriages on a whim, and women would be asked to fork over the home, monthly cheques, the kids, and have the knowledge that your husbands new lover is doing it with him in what used to be your bed.

    It would never happen. There would be a million woman march on washington or mass protests with Oprah leading the charge.

    But it’s just status quo for men to suck it up.

    So again, i’m totally on board with you about families and men who sire/raise/teach/help grow their children into the next gen as being biologically and evolutionarily functioning alphas.. but i don’t see women caring enough to march into the streets to demand the current system of marriage 2.0 to be obliterated in favor of something that places onus on those who terminate the marriage to take the breach of contract penalty. Until we see enough women care deeply enough to enact change, men will stand down and stay away from the alter and all the responsibility that comes with.

    A man marrying today might not be a beta, but he is playing Russian roulette with a gun containing more than one bullet. We usually call those people suckers.. or Darwin award nominees.


  181. thehumanscorch June 12, 2013 at 13:51 #

    “They[bacteria] all look the same under the microscope, it’s only after they’re in your system that you find out.
    And in today’s world there is no protection against it (for men anyways).”


    “Men are being asked to take a gamble on love, life and family with the system stacked against them.”


    “If the roles were reversed and men could destroy marriages on a whim, and women would be asked to fork over the home, monthly cheques, the kids, and have the knowledge that your husbands new lover is doing it with him in what used to be your bed.
    It would never happen. There would be a million woman march on washington or mass protests with Oprah leading the charge.
    But it’s just status quo for men to suck it up.”


    “A man marrying today might not be a beta, but he is playing Russian roulette with a gun containing more than one bullet. We usually call those people suckers.. or Darwin award nominees.”



  182. thehumanscorch June 12, 2013 at 13:55 #

    There is no way to measure character until the pressure is on.
    When you get married, you have legal, financial, and social responsibilities, and when you get divorced, they are multiplied, all regardless of how the woman acts.

    Why in the WORLD would a man voluntarily step into an arrangement like that?

    If girls were being forced into marriages at 14 with men old enough to be their fathers there would be OUTRAGE. How dare she be forced into doing something she didn’t want to do & have no rights?

    But when a woman decides to ‘Eat, Pray, Love’ the man has to pay while she’s free to play.

    No thanks.


  183. deti June 12, 2013 at 14:37 #


    Those things are not shaming. They are facts. They are what happens to men when they commit to relationships and become fathers.

    The issue is that society used to encourage and foster this in men, because our society recognized these as good and beneficial things. Now, feminist society penalizes and punishes it, and encourages women to take advantage of it and capitalize on it.

    There’s no incentive in fatherhood and marriage anymore. If anything, they’re disincentivized and discouraged.


  184. deti June 12, 2013 at 14:39 #


    Those things are “sexy” to you, but only from a man you find attractive. That’s the key difference.

    Men, do not read Clover’s post and thinking that your offering these things to a woman you’ve started dating are “attractive” or “sexy”. They are not, unless she ALREADY thinks you’re attractive and sexy.


  185. deti June 12, 2013 at 14:43 #


    I used to think like you do. I used to listen to women tell me that I just needed to be nice, to offer comforting things like foot rubs and backrubs and spooning and cuddling and compliments. I used to think those things would make me “sexy” and “attractive”.

    I was wrong.

    I can’t even tell you how many times I got blown out of the water after doing well out of the gate initially. I would start with comfort too soon. Then I got the usual brush off.

    “I just don’t want to get serious.”

    “You’re a really nice guy, but….”

    “I just don’t want a relationship right now.”

    “We should just be friends.”

    Sorry Clover. I call bullshit. You are wrong, 100% WRONG. What you’re describing are things you want from a man who’s ALREADY sexy. A man doing those things will get frustrated again and again and again.


  186. Goober June 12, 2013 at 14:53 #



  187. Goober June 12, 2013 at 14:59 #

    And you aren’t?


  188. thehumanscorch June 12, 2013 at 15:03 #

    It’s a safe bet to say, when the vast majority of stats, data, and common experience is on your side, it’s not a “bubble.”
    So called “good” women with low slut mileage that respect men, husbanding, fathering, and being treated well are clearly the exception these days and not the rule. This is what the men are speaking to.
    That is not a bubble. That is 21st century reality.


  189. freetofish June 12, 2013 at 15:10 #

    Look at the divorce rates in the US and Canada. Then look at the fact that 65-70% of divorces are initiated by women. Then look at the child custody rates and the fact that 95% of child support payments are from men to women.

    Then look at the fact that even in Christian marriages the divorce rate is 38%. These are people who supposedly take vows before God seriously.

    I never claimed to be “alpha”, nor do I game women. I strive to always be honest and upfront with the women I date. I just have no interest in marriage and think that for the majority of men due to the way the current system works, it is not a good bet.

    I understand why men still get married and certainly understand the desire for children and a family. I just haven’t decided if doing so in the face of statistics and the probabilities of our current age is brave or foolhardy.

    To use your tire analogy. If there was a 50% chance people died every time they got in a car or on an airplane, there would be a lot of people riding horses again…..


  190. freetofish June 12, 2013 at 15:31 #

    That’s not shaming, nor is being a good provider a bad thing, is it?

    Is a scientifically proven fact that when a man in a committed relationship and has kids his body chemistry undergoes a change, a lowering of testosterone. This is nature’s way of getting that man to stick around to raise his offspring.

    The sad thing is that is no longer “enough” for many women anymore. I could link you to story, after story after story, written by women who divorced good, solid providers and fathers because “they just don’t love him any more”. “He’s a nice guy but….”

    You should enjoy that one. Story after story about Men who believed the feminist trope that what women want is a guy who does the chores, gives his wife everything they say they want, but in doing so lose that “vibe”, the attraction that is what really keeps women in marriage.


  191. LostSailor June 12, 2013 at 15:35 #

    Liz, please point out where I have ever “shamed” great husbands and fathers in any way at all, and in particular your man. I haven’t. Indeed quite the opposite.

    You, and to an extent RS, seem to be taking offense at the very idea that there could be a “beta provider” type out there as well as regarding the term “beta” to describe a man and his actions and behavior as a slur. It’s not.

    Keep in mind that these terms “alpha” and “beta” are descriptive, not proscriptive and in these contexts are used in a socio-sexual context. There are very few true natural alphas out there (I’ve ever only know two that I would consider true natural alphas); most generally socially competent men are beta and will fall somewhere on a spectrum. These are not absolute descriptors either; a man may have more or less alpha or beta traits at different times in his life.

    But when it comes to the sexual market place, the average guy gets blown out of the water these days. Learning how to project some more “alpha” traits and behaviors greatly helps to level the playing field and help the “beta” reach his goal, whether that’s just to get laid or to find a long-term girlfriend.

    Betas built Western civilization and the SMP was regulated by society to make sure he had a place at the table when it came to marriage and family. Those regulations are largely gone and the average guy risks greatly by trying to have marriage and family these days. That’s not to say that there aren’t many strong marriages out there, but the divorce statistics don’t lie. The so-called marriage strike is a real phenomenon because the average guys are starting to realize that the marriage risk (not to mention the slow implosion of the middle class) is too great and they can’t find any suitable women who will give them the time of day.

    “Beta” is not a slur; we need betas. If they opt out in great enough numbers, as they are, and our society crashes and burns.

    Try not to take all this so personally. In the meantime, I’ll be poolside…


  192. LostSailor June 12, 2013 at 16:00 #

    I’d be happy to treat you like an individual human being, Apple. Can you stop projecting your solipsistic opinions and preferences on all men and women?

    We speak in generalities because generalities apply in general. You seem to take them as applying to you specifically, the old “not all women are like that” argument, which usually can be translated as “I recognized myself there, but I’m not really like that, I’m special.”

    You claim not to be a feminist. Many women say this, but have been soaking so long in the miasma of feminist culture, they don’t realize that they actually are. Disclaim all you want, but the evidence is clear in your comment: The anger and vitriol; the confusing general observations as personal attacks; the notion that disagreeing with you is the same as not considering you an individual, valuable human being; the slurring of men who are just trying to better themselves; the accusation that PUAs must have “tiny penises” (don’t try to hide behind your husband, dear, that’s totally your thought, so own it); and, most particularly, your accusation that I am “a misogynist.” That last one is the dead giveaway.

    Sorry, Apple, but if you don’t want to be taken as a raving feminist, don’t angrily and blithely spout feminist rhetoric…


  193. LostSailor June 12, 2013 at 16:09 #

    Usually only have to register the first time I hit the site after initially opening the browser, otherwise the “registration” is remembered. I’ve seen that some comments get through and others don’t. Usually they hit moderation if I include a link, but sometimes others without links will get caught. . I’m registering with my wordpress/gravatar account, if that helps.


  194. Radical Suburbanite June 12, 2013 at 16:09 #

    The hardest thing about having a conversation online is that subtext is so hard to get across.

    I can only speak for myself but I must admit that the use of beta in the manosphere usually comes across as a slur when it’s used by men. That might not be the intention, but it is often the perception. Like I said before, the men in my life aren’t people I’d purely classify as alpha or beta. The only point I was trying to get across is that I believe that marriage and children have brought out and strengthened my husbands alpha traits. I would say that he was more beta when we first met– so obviously I’m not the kind of gal who is looking for an aggressively alpha guy. I had my fill of that game during my dating years was happy to find a nice, low key guy to marry.

    I think the “beta provider” as a descriptor doesn’t ring true for Liz or me. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a correct assessment, it’s just not how we feel about our men. But that is also coming from women who don’t toe the feminist line- so our attitudes may not by typical.


  195. freetofish June 12, 2013 at 16:15 #

    Interesting post PPP. Interesting because you in essence put forward the exact reason why guys are tuning into “game”.

    From your post:

    Sure when your pushing paper and sprouting numbers or commanding young men to fight to their death, or ensuring all the health and safety regulations are checked for nuclear power plants,, Alpha traits are essential. No nonsense, No emotive thinking, ACTION MEN. Yahooo…..

    But to marry one? No thanks. (wouldn’t kick them out of bed though….well course not, i had to tie them in there in the first place!)

    Those two paragraphs are why guys are opting out of marriage. The “marry the provider” while still yearning for the hunky alpha in the bedroom. Or more crassly as the gamers say:

    Alpha fucks/beta bucks.


  196. princesspixiepointless June 12, 2013 at 16:25 #

    Fair enough, but i was speaking or writing in terms of what i once thought.
    I have been with (we are not married yet, but have discussed doing so in JB’s back yard one of these summers)
    as it’s not been our top priority but we have been together for ten years, have a child,
    a house and a committed life to each other.

    I wouldn’t trade him for the world. I was young and yeah, I had foolish thoughts about what and
    how I view men, relationships and dating. I don’t think like that at all anymore.
    I was immature.

    When i met him, he was the nice guy, and to be honest, it scared the heck out of me.

    Totally can see where you are coming from.


  197. princesspixiepointless June 12, 2013 at 16:27 #

    That’s the media induction i was drowned with and having a mother who was a serious man hater.
    It took a fair share of emotional beatings to make me realise that ‘nice guys’ are the ones
    smart women should have in their lives, and that whole asshole or/and alpha thing just isn’t on
    with me. Plus, i’m hardly an Alpha myself. Just needed to be honest with myself to get things right.


  198. princesspixiepointless June 12, 2013 at 16:28 #

    Which in no way meant that I was settling.


  199. thehumanscorch June 12, 2013 at 16:37 #

    Then, PPP, you should have no problems whatsoever understanding that when you get old, your titties sag, your skin is wrinkled & you have lost the flower of your youth, your husband has the right to trade you in for a 19 year still in her flower & prime.

    Women want what they want? No problem.
    Men want what we want too, so I propose a ‘Wife Over 40’ addition to all marital & divorce law that gives the man financial exemptions. No man wants to pay for old vagina, and any man that tells you different is lying.


  200. princesspixiepointless June 12, 2013 at 16:47 #

    So THS ‘No man wants to pay for old vagina, and any man that tells you different is lying.’

    I do believe this one man does….



  201. thehumanscorch June 12, 2013 at 17:05 #

    The girl in that first link is 21!

    Alright then, we’ll have a ‘Wayne Rooney’ clause for the 2% of dudes that want to shag their grandmothers, and the ‘Wives over 40’ clause for the rest of us. Problem solved.


  202. freetofish June 12, 2013 at 17:05 #

    JB, just have to say this has been an excellent thought provoking post, as I’m sure you are aware by the number of comments.

    It did get me thinking about some of your older posts and I had to chuckle a bit. I remember one where you mentioned when you and Mr.JB were dating (i think it was the on on how to compete with “sluts”). You said he had a clipboard or something with names of women he had “on the line” and where the conversation left off so he could pick it back up when THEY called HIM.

    That is seriously tight “game” right there. Guys over at Heartiste would applaud that. Obviously this was ling before “game” and such hit the internet. You landed the “great white whale” of the dating world. A natural high level Alpha who wanted to settle down. That may be why you have a hard time understanding the concept of a “beta”.

    You still want him now as much as ever because he has never lapsed in those alpha traits.

    Case in point his poem:

    Stick with me and you’ll never get hurt,
    Enough of this shit, go iron my shirt.


  203. freetofish June 12, 2013 at 17:31 #

    PPP, where THS is coming from in his post is becoming the prevailing train of thought for a lot of guys who are turning their backs on marriage.

    To look at it from their point of view. They couldn’t get the time of day from these women back in their 20’s. They did what they thought women wanted, at least what the told them they wanted, being nice, thoughtful, romantic, putting them on a pedestal, got them nothing on the romance front. It got them “you’re such a nice guy”, “you’ll make someone a great husband someday” etc etc.

    Now, they are in their mid to late 30’s.. they have a great career, make good money and NOW when these woman have given their youth to “finding themselves” are single, mid 30’s with their “clocks” ticking, NOW they will look at the “nice guy”. NOW the “nice guy” is good enough for them to date, marry and have kids with.

    Then they get bombarded with the current media trends. “Where have all the good guys gone?’ Time to “man up” and marry these women. “peter pan syndrome” etc etc etc.

    Intersting study of demographics over at Dalrock’s site

    IN 1999 35% of women aged 24-29 had never been married in 2012 that number is 47.5%

    In 1999 17.5% of women in the 30-34 group had never been married. in 2012 25%

    Men are looking at the choices women make and saying screw that noise.


  204. feeriker June 12, 2013 at 18:07 #

    Giving compliments must be a reciprocal event. If it’s at all one sided, or the poor shmuck is doling out compliments left right and center.. while she is neither returning compliments, indicators of interest or at the very least.. a nice sammich (:P) then this is what we call a doormat and a supplicating tard.

    From personal experience I can say that too many women today consider themselves ENTITLED to regular compliments from their men for, oh, whatthefuckever or even nothingatall, even if they’ve done nothing to earn them. But do they ever RETURN compliments to their men? Or spontaneously give them for whatthefuckeverreason or noreasonatall? Hardly. The man’s duty is to be the wallet and the handyman. Why should he expect compliments for just doing his job? If he were worthy of any compliments he would be neither of the two aforementioned things (and probably not in a relationship with the average woman either).


  205. feeriker June 12, 2013 at 18:10 #

    From the sounds of things, most of the men commenting on this posting have a horrible taste in women and are dating the wrong women. If you’re using the terms “vain, vapid, feral, selfish, and shallow” to describe the women you are dating, maybe the problem isn’t with women, but in your choice of which women to associate with?

    All true, BUT… when several hundred (or thousand) fisherman are angling in the same small pond, the “prize catches” tend to disappear fairly early in the game. The rest of the anglers, if they catch anything at all, are forced to be content with what would ordinarily be considered “throwbacks.”


  206. feeriker June 12, 2013 at 18:12 #

    Spot on, Deti.

    Oh, and guys, don’t even think of asking a woman to return the favor (i.e., backrubs, cuddling, compliments, massages, etc.). You’ll find out quickly that that’s strictly a one-way street.


  207. Exfernal June 12, 2013 at 18:14 #

    Which is
    quite an eye-opener for some. A true “Red Pill” moment.


  208. feeriker June 12, 2013 at 18:27 #

    It took a fair share of emotional beatings to make me realise that ‘nice guys’ are the ones smart women should have in their lives, and that whole asshole or/and alpha thing just isn’t on with me.

    But unfortunately, as your statement makes clear, most women only realize that too late in their lives. Short of a majority of women realizing in their early 20s that riding the carousel is going to be a losing proposition (the likelihood of which is somewhere in the neighborhood of discovering the last remaining unicorn and the Holy Grail at the same time and in the same location), nothing is going to change and the same trends will continue.


  209. freetofish June 12, 2013 at 19:29 #

    That’s the media narrative though isn’t it. Fun away your 20’s and even then don’t “settle” for anything less than exactly what you want. Go read some online dating profiles of mid 30’s woman who feel entitled enough to say they won’t settle for anything less than tall,dark,handsome,rich and will treat them like a Princess. It’s a prime example of the sunk-cost fallacy. I’ve held out this long for Mr.Perfect, why would I except anything less now. (enjoy your cats ladies you can even call one Mr.Perfect)

    What is so wrong with this narrative is the woman is not the one settling. It’s the man.

    A mid 30’s man with a good career and reasonably good looking should be marrying a early to mid 20’s woman. He brings a ton to the table in regards to stability and being able to provide for the family. He should be trading this for a young, fertile woman who has a long window of child bearing.

    He doesn’t understand this, he has been conditioned to think he is blessed that ANY woman who chooses him is a perfect princess. Hence he settles for an older, less fertile woman with less potential child bearing years, then thanks her for it.

    What so many “beta” men don’t understand is that though woman are the gatekeepers to sex, men are the gatekeepers to commitment.

    Sad really.


  210. M3 June 12, 2013 at 19:32 #

    What Deti said.

    This should help too:


  211. M3 June 12, 2013 at 19:39 #

    Everything you just said.. in an infographic LOL


  212. Clover June 12, 2013 at 20:13 #

    Oi, feeriker! I will have you know I give my fiancee a backrubs, I cuddle him for hours, I wash his clothes, I cook his meals, I buy his food, I wash his dishes, I give him head, I sing him to sleep, I never turn down sex (not even when I broke my leg!), I drive hours every week to see him, I help him with his work, I call him every morning, I entertain his friends, I stroke his hair while he plays online games, I drive him to visit his friends even if they’re not my friends, make his bed, I iron his shirts…if you think women never pull their weight, you must have had rotten luck finding a decent one.
    And Deti? I have never yet turned down a man when he’s asked to date me, excepting when I was already in a relationship. I’ve never turned down sex with a guy I’ve agreed to date. And I’ve never thought a man was ‘attractive’ or not. There’s something good to see in everybody, and I honestly believe there’s no person on earth I couldn’t grow to love, if I’d set my mind on it. Certainly, if I’ve agreed to be in a relationship, I take that committment seriously, no matter how I feel. Love isn’t about what your ‘feelings’ dictate, it’s about how you behave. If you don’t know women who treat men that well, I’m sorry. But there aren’t many honorable people in the world of either gender, unfortunately. We all just have to take our chances and try our best.


  213. Clover June 12, 2013 at 20:18 #

    Last I heard, 50% of first marriages last over a decade…that doesn’t sound like bad odds to me, certainly that 50% is pretty large to be the ‘exception’


  214. Clover June 12, 2013 at 20:22 #

    You leave out that most men (and women) are in marriage for more than just sex and money. There’s usually a large element of affection, too. I’d pick familiarity and comfort over lust any day, and there are plenty of old couples who appear to feel the same.


  215. Exfernal June 12, 2013 at 20:23 #

    “Oxytocin. Women produce it when they have sex. It chemically/hormonally makes us want to BOND with the man we just slept with. That’s why men never have PUA books trying to teach them how “not to get attached””

    Well, not only women produce oxytocin. Men do too, only in lesser quantity. That’s why PUAs are wary of being afflicted with “oneitis”.

    And lastly, you might consider reading this Stingray’s blog post. There is a lot of valuable advice targeted at all “unique snowflakes” which visit the manosphere.


  216. thehumanscorch June 12, 2013 at 21:01 #

    Just like I said.
    These are BUBBLE women, who seem to have developed old fashioned values & attitudes, who clearly have NO IDEA what TODAY’S woman is like, nor what it’s like being a guy trying to navigate the 2013 relationship waters.


  217. thehumanscorch June 12, 2013 at 21:03 #

    “You leave out that most men (and women) are in marriage for more than just sex and money.”



  218. Reggie June 12, 2013 at 21:18 #

    I wonder why great thinkers in the past never used words like string theory and Higgs Boson? Perhaps they don’t exist … oh wait, maybe shit actually gets discovered beyond the 18th century.


  219. Radical Suburbanite June 12, 2013 at 21:41 #

    That’s what I hear from my husband’s still-single friends. It seems analogous to the women who wait until after their fertile years to try to have kids. Only in this case marriage-minded men might not be choosing marriage early enough. The one advantage the men have over the ladies is that there is always a new pool of recruits showing up if you don’t mind dating younger women. I do know a few men who are married to women who are 15+ years younger- but I don’t know what the typical lifespan is on relationships with a big age gap.


  220. feeriker June 12, 2013 at 21:58 #

    My husband’s friend is an odd duck. He is mostly celibate by choice. He’s a black man who doesn’t really fit into the world he was born into. He’s very clean cut, has a regular job etc., but doesn’t have any interest in women. He’s a big talker who, back in high school, claimed he’d have cars, women, private jets and so on by the time he was 40 but ended up living in a crappy duplex in a bad part of town. He claims to be a driven guy but really has no drive at all. He doesn’t want to work, he just wants to go through the motions and complain when he doesn’t get anywhere.

    It appears that this man not only long ago figured out what a losing proposition relationships are in this day and age, but also what a losing proposition it is to become an anonymous cog in the soul-crushing corporate rat face which, in the long term, benefits no one but the one percent – and those women out there who want a beta provider.

    IOW, your husband’s friend is smarter than you give him credit for.


  221. feeriker June 12, 2013 at 21:58 #

    Sorry, make that “rat RACE,” not “face.”


  222. feeriker June 12, 2013 at 22:15 #

    The one advantage the men have over the ladies is that there is always a new pool of recruits showing up if you don’t mind dating younger women. I do know a few men who are married to women who are 15+ years younger- but I don’t know what the typical lifespan is on relationships with a big age gap.

    Outside of a few isolated religious communities (think: Amish, Mormon?) that idea is a non-starter. Leaving aside the fact that almost NO women in the western secular world today will even consider marrying a man more than five or six years their senior, a mature older man would have to be an idiot to even consider marrying a girl-child who is the product of today’s western feminist culture. That would be tantamount to suicide.

    I personally know of only one case where such an age-disparate marriage has worked that wasn’t an “arranged” marriage. (It’s a couple I know who are part of a deeply religious, born-again Christian community who went through the rituals of courtship before they married [a beautiful thing it was, by the way]. He’s 36, she’s 25, and they have two beautiful young children. Observing them actually gives me hope for the future – until I realize that they’re an aberration.) The “older man/younger woman” paring outside the context of a female hypergamy-meets-male desperation scenario is doomed to fail.


  223. feeriker June 12, 2013 at 22:29 #

    You took the words right off my fingertips.

    To Clover, Liz, RS, JB, and all you other ladies here:

    PLEASE don’t take our* cold cynicism personally. It’s NOT directed at you. As others here have said, you are that precious 5 to 10% of western womanhood that is the exception to what we* meet in our lives every day, and we LOVE YOU FOR IT. It’s why we’re here.

    It’s just that you are, as we said, THE EXCEPTION to the norm. What we wish would encounter in any given woman we meet in our daily lives. We (or at least I) have no doubt that you are loving wives to loving husbands who go to the ends of the earth to provide for you (which I believe that any one of us would do for you if we were in their shoes), that you are the loving, stable parents to wonderful children. IOW, you are what SHOULD be the norm in relationships between men and women. But, alas, it’s not.

    What is typical and normal for you is the precious and rare exception, the anomaly, for us. We wish it weren’t so, but it is so. We can only hope that it won’t always be so.

    So, again, we’re not trying to shame, insult, snark, or anger, though admittedly it probably does come across that way sometimes. We’re just telling it as we see it.

    [Jumping down off of soapbox and chopping it up for firewood]

    (* I’m violating my inner libertarian and “speaking for others” here, although in the most general of terms. I ask for forgiveness in advance.)


  224. deti June 12, 2013 at 22:47 #

    Assumed attraction.

    And attraction is assumed because the men who receive the advice are noticed as “men” only if they are attractive.

    Unattractive men are not “men”, they are “males”. They are sexual blanks.

    This is what women mean when they say that they don’t think of a man “that way”. What she is really saying is that she’s not attracted to him; he’s a “male”, not a man.


  225. Radical Suburbanite June 12, 2013 at 23:03 #

    I would agree with you if he seemed happy, but he’s not. He’s chronically frustrated.


  226. Radical Suburbanite June 12, 2013 at 23:18 #

    Aw, thanks.

    I have seen the frustration you have in my husband’s still-single friends. It amazes me that such nice guys can’t find a good woman. And we’re not talking about guys who aren’t good looking, nor or they socially awkward. It’s just that the dating pool is just as bad as you say.

    Speaking for myself I was just hoping to make the point that women like us do very much appreciate men that tend to get the beta label.


  227. Apple June 13, 2013 at 01:40 #


    I think we’re done here. Feel free not to reply to anything I say in future if I decide to post. I can’t control what you do, but I won’t be replying further to you. I don’t want you to waste your time.


  228. Apple June 13, 2013 at 01:48 #

    I’m really not interested with engaging with “the manosphere”. I was simply sharing why I think that women in GENERAL do not like casual sex if they have healthy self esteem. That was the only point I was making. It turned into other things here, but that was the only point I was making. I just get tired of hearing this overgeneralizing that ALL women will just jump on any penis that is “alpha enough” when this is just not true of most women with healthy self esteem since there are a plethora of risks and realities that end up creating a situation where for MOST women there is really nothing in it for them.

    1. Most women don’t have orgasms from casual sex partners because most PUA types just frankly do not care if a woman has an orgasm and since all he has is one night stands generally, he doesn’t have to bother knowing anything about female anatomy or how to get his partner off. Also, a man who spends all his time “manipulating women into bed” no matter what they really want, can’t have very much respect for women.

    2. STDs, “safe sex” really isn’t. There are several STDs including herpes and HPV which you can contract even using condoms. This might be a “reasonable risk” for someone you love, but for some random stranger who won’t even give you an orgasm most likely… not so much. Also, there are new STDs, one of which is reported to be a type of flesh eating bacteria. SERIOUSLY? Casual sex is NOT worth it.

    3. Pregnancy risk. Not a small risk.

    4. Oxytocin and wanting to bond and be with someone who just wanted to pump and dump.

    I can’t see any logical reason why the majority of women who have healthy self-esteem would be into random casual sex with strangers or near strangers. Sex used to mean something. It’s a very intimate and private act. To make it cheap like shaking hands pretty much disgusts me. That doesn’t mean people can’t do what they want, but women who say… no really… most women don’t want casual sex and here is why… should be listened to because these are not stupid reasons.

    And re: oxytocin… yes… exactly… men DO release it but a LOT less, and in several studies the amount they do release tends to affect the woman’s bonding to them more than their bonding to her. SOME men make a lot more oxytocin and therefore are less likely to be into one night stands. SOME women make very little oxytocin and are more likely to be into one night stands. MOST women make enough oxytocin that one night stands will be emotionally damaging to them and their self esteem, in addition to the list I mentioned previously.

    Men are free to ignore this and pump and dump, but pretending these biological realities are not biological realities to assuage any guilt of using women is just… yeah. No further comment.


  229. Aye. June 13, 2013 at 02:58 #

    I would rather bed a man-slut than a serial monogamist. At least the slut only plans to waste a single night of my time.


  230. princesspixiepointless June 13, 2013 at 06:20 #

    Thanks. I want to improve comment flow for our regulars. P


  231. Clover June 13, 2013 at 07:47 #

    It’s possible to size up someone’s character before tying the knot though, if not before jumping into bed. Is she sensible, practical, seroius, intelligent? That might not sound like a bucket of fun, but it’ll result in a relationship you don’t have to ‘manage’ constantly. You have to find someone who isn’t interested in themself, who goes and does stuff in/for/with the world, rather than sitting alone in their own bubble. I’m not saying they’re common, but I’m saying a man shouldn’t have to base his romantic life on advice that makes him act like a dick…because then if a nice girl does come along, she won’t go for him.
    And remember, it’s not like most guys are good life partners either. My first boyfriend became my ex after he went from a nice young man to a threatening, rude, layabout, rapist, whiny, spend-all-my-money lying asshole. It’s not easy for either gender to be sure about the person they’re getting involved with is decent, but you’ll only hurt your chances of attracting the kind of woman you claim to want if you try to act like a super-alpha PUA stud.


  232. Radical Suburbanite June 13, 2013 at 07:59 #

    Thanks for the link to Stingray’s article. I wish I *had* read that prior to entering the manosphere. Lots of great advice.


  233. Exfernal June 13, 2013 at 09:39 #

    A tongue-in-cheek cautionary tale illustrating my point.


  234. thehumanscorch June 13, 2013 at 12:22 #

    HAH. Once again, an attempt at spin.

    Women are *actresses.* You come out of the womb that way.
    A woman that’s interested in you will study you, and when she’s trying to secure the relationship, she’ll become whatever it is she thinks you like. Laugh at your stupid jokes that she really doesn’t think is funny. Watch movies that she really doesn’t care for, all in an attempt to lock *you* down.
    Women fake orgasms. Women do many things sexually to secure a relationship that they have *no intention of keeping up* after the altar. Way too many married men can testify, and have testified, to that.
    Women can hold up their facade much better, and much longer, than men can. Period.
    And for the record, “nice” girls, my ass.

    That would be Truth Translated as “not pretty enough to be the bitch I want to be.”


  235. deti June 13, 2013 at 15:20 #


    You say that girls who have casual sex over and over do it because they have LSE and they want the man (men) to like them and fear that they have to put out or the man (men) won’t remain interested.

    There’s kind of a flaw in your thinking.

    I’m going to assume (as I am sure you do as well) that even if these women have LSE, they can still think, have full agency in their conduct, and can still draw simple logical conclusions.

    So with those assumptions, let me ask you:

    These girls are putting out for men they like; but the hot, high value alpha studs they put out for STILL DON’T REMAIN INTERESTED EVEN AFTER THEY PUT OUT. At most, she gets a 3 or 4 month STR out of it, or a spot in a rotating harem until he gets sick of her or she hassles him too much.

    So, Apple, how many times does our casual sex slut have to do this before she figures out that she doesn’t have a gold-plated, velvet lined pussy? How many times does she have to put out for the alpha stud to figure out that her casual sex-to-marriage-to-hot-alpha-man KIND OF SUCKS and ISN’T WORKING?

    See, the fact that women are doing this tells me they aren’t doing it because they hate it or because they want a boyfriend or a husband. THEY’RE DOING IT BECAUSE THEY WANT THE SEX FROM HOT ALPHA MEN. If they can get commitment, great. But if they can’t, they’ll take the sex, and they are taking the sex.


  236. Clover June 13, 2013 at 15:23 #

    I have a weird feeling you’re trying to provoke me, but I’m not up for arguing right now. I agree, lots of women are stupid, manipulative bitches. However, the ones who aren’t will go for men who seem nice, not jerks. That’s all I’m saying.
    I don’t know if you’re referring specifically to me when you mention actresses, but I assure you I’m not trying to ‘spin’ anything. I’ve no need to convince strangers on the internet that it’s possible for a woman to have a good character that shows, nor to tell myself such a thing. I know how I’m living my life, and it’s without bitchiness, faked orgasms, acting, or any games at all. I’m bright enough to see that being honest is the best policy if what you honestly are is good enough. Luckily, what I am is pretty damn good, and if I find myself lacking, I’ll just improve myself. No acting required!


  237. deti June 13, 2013 at 15:46 #

    I keep asking this question around the sphere, and I’ve yet to get any kind of answer that makes any sense.

    If she’s doing this because she wants a relationship, then how many times does she do this until she figures out it’s not working?

    And why does 30 seem to be the magical age at which a woman finally puts on her fucking thinking cap and says “Hmm. You know, this whole put out for hot dudes in exchange for maybe a wedding ring gig ain’t working out so well; plus i NEED A BABY so maybe that pudgy accountant’s not looking too bad”?

    Can any of you judgybitches shed some light on that?


  238. Clover June 13, 2013 at 16:00 #

    The thing is, less than half the guys I know are interested in casual sex, let alone the women. And no, I don’t think I’m being solopistic, a quick search on google scholar points to only 13% of Canadian women reporting ever having had sex with someone they’d just met and 36% having had sex in a non-committed relationship. Sure you can say they lied, or it’s not representitive, but even if it’s double that, most women aren’t just waiting to hop into bed with mister alpha.
    My personal suspicion is that most people have better things to do, but whatever. The point is, it doesn’t matter why some women have one night stands until you acknowledge that most don’t, and that therefore it’s likely not biologically hirdwired into us.


  239. deti June 13, 2013 at 16:33 #


    I won’t acknowledge that most women don’t have ONSs, or that most women haven’t had at least one. EVERY woman I know in real life who has talked about her sex life EXCEPT ONE has confessed to at least one ONS. These are women around my own age (40s). So, with all due respect, you’re not going to get me to believe that most women have never engaged in casual sex, particularly when I know most women are, shall we say, less than completely honest about their sexual histories.

    So the question matters. I would like to know:

    Why do women who engage in casual sex do this, when it does not serve the stated goal of securing commitment from a high status alpha man?

    Why do they not learn that casual sex and ONSs do not serve that goal when they see repeatedly that it does not?

    And how many times does a woman need to do this before she learns it? Five times? Ten? Twenty? More? Or does she need to reach age 30 first? Is there something about age 30 that makes women smart up?


  240. deti June 13, 2013 at 16:38 #

    Another thing:

    If it was like this in the 1980s and 1990s when I was chasing tail and women all around me were giving it up to the hot alpha dudes in spades, I can only believe it’s gotten a whole lot worse in the 20 years since.

    Particularly since women’s role models seem to be Kim Kardashian, Lindsay Lohan, Snooki, JWOWW, and Sex and the City.


  241. Clover June 13, 2013 at 16:39 #

    Citation needed? Most people can get sex and money without marrying, therefore I fail to see how marriage can be purely based on those two motives.


  242. thehumanscorch June 13, 2013 at 16:57 #

    Most people can’t get the kind of cash & property payouts through other situations the way they can through divorce.
    And you show me the man that has a low to no sex marriage who will say, “Well, I’m getting a lot of other benefits, so I’m good.”


  243. thehumanscorch June 13, 2013 at 17:06 #

    I’m replying down here because I ran out of reply options on the earlier thread.

    I’m not trying to provoke you. I’m trying to convey the truth of my experience.
    I’m glad that you feel that there are women who aren’t stupid manipulative bitches, and I’m glad that you feel you have excellent character.
    You’re in the minority.


  244. Clover June 13, 2013 at 17:24 #

    Yeah, but a man doesn’t get married to have his wife cook meals for him, but if the marriage started out that way and then she stops, he’s not going to notice the other benefits, he’s going to wonder what’s wrong that she’s stopped cooking. Same goes for sex, but more so because it’s even more common for people to have sex when married than to cook for one another.
    Also, the stats I’ve seen indicate that divorce results in a higher risk of poverty for the women and her children, so for a not-super-rich couple, I’m not sure divorce has that big a payout.


  245. thehumanscorch June 13, 2013 at 17:44 #

    Then, all of these things are in conflict.

    Why is there story after story of women cleaning men out in a divorce, and still ending up in poverty?
    Why do the numbers say that 70% of divorces are initiated by women if poverty is the most common result?


  246. Aye. June 14, 2013 at 05:35 #

    Or they simply choose to expect that women are those things, so that’s what they see?


  247. Aye. June 14, 2013 at 05:41 #

    This doesn’t sound admirable, I’m sorry Clover, I am sure you are truly very nice, but I hear a bit of a martyr complex, here, and expect that you’ve been treated like a doormat more than once or twice?


  248. Clover June 14, 2013 at 15:40 #

    Not really, I also have a short temper and have a hard time respecting people. It’s a give-and-take thing, I get everything I want from my relationship, so I see the sense in making it good for my man too. As for people in general…well, I just don’t see why I shouldn’t give people a chance. It costs me very little to be nice, so why not be generous about it? It’s possible someone will play me for a fool in future, but so far treating people decently has worked out pretty well for me.


  249. Clover June 14, 2013 at 15:52 #

    In response to the talk of divorce and poverty, I only have this to say – people are often astonishingly stupid.
    Women who divorce non-violent men are obviously either stupid or emotionally infantile, unless they have husband mark 2 waiting in the wings. It’s perfectly possible to run a loveless marriage, and run it well, if you are both intelligent human beings who care about your finances and children. Sure, you might have to make it an open marriage, if things are really un-sexy, but it’s doable. But lots of people, women particularly, are foolish and live under the delusion that doing stupid things will work out alright. That they’re special, and that they’ll find another mariage with more sex appeal/social status/money/companionship or whatever. Men do this too, but usually less. This is my theory, and it seems to be bourne out by the lower divorce rate among higher iq couples. You have to be either dim or nasty to get a divorce, and I think I’d pin the blame on the former sooner than the latter.


  250. Reggie June 14, 2013 at 20:00 #

    Not well said. Sorry to bring this up but his wife has no sex drive.

    Beta is not a bad term if you don’t mind paying full price for something an alpha got for free when she was younger, tighter and 40 lbs lighter.


  251. Reggie June 14, 2013 at 20:15 #

    Alphas can get married. JB obviously found one with the “Not About You” sonnet. The Beta Provider male is the one who takes up the shop worn pussy and worships it like it was saved for him.

    The I don’t care that you pulled a train of 5 guys or did a threesome 5 times in your past but won’t do one with me – kind of guy.


  252. Reggie June 14, 2013 at 20:27 #

    Perhaps several women wasted his time?


  253. Reggie June 14, 2013 at 20:45 #

    Clover is coming from the mindset of a woman who got a surprise backrub from an alpha cad who usually acted in an aloof manner.


  254. LostSailor June 14, 2013 at 21:26 #

    Certainly a alpha can be a cad, but not necessarily so. And cads are cads because they are successful with women. Vox, Roissy, and Roosh only speak the truth, and truth won’t poison your soul. What you do with it might, but not the mere knowledge of it. You’re right about the patriarch, the foundation of patriarchy and one of the foundations of Western civilization.

    Other than that, you’re a bit delusional, Bob…


  255. Reggie June 14, 2013 at 22:10 #



  256. Reggie June 14, 2013 at 22:12 #

    I like this one better:


  257. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 16:59 #

    Apha = Asshole for the simple fact that (like drop dead gorgeous women), they’re jaded with affection and can do without it. As soon as you try lady game on him, he’ll not even care if you walk out because there is another girl waiting in the wings. This makes him seem like an asshole. It’s the aloofness of the man who could care less if you’re there that attracts the attention. People tend to seek approval from a person who doesn’t readily approve.


  258. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 17:03 #

    They also seem like assholes because the aloofness allows them to say and do things that are outside social convention. They don’t care if you don’t like the way they act because they are not seeking your approval.

    You (JB) might not think he’s an asshole, but lots of other people may. They will still try to gain his approval.

    It’s like being the only person in the room who can make a baby stop crying or have a kitten fall asleep in your lap. You didn’t want to hold the baby and you most certainly didn’t want to be stuck having to pee with a sleeping kitten on your lap, but you do it.


  259. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 19:41 #


    I refer to it as Wild Stallion Syndrom. Girl loves wild stallion, he is majestic, wild and nobody can ride him. She yearns to ride wild stallion and braids an amazing harness for him and entices him with carrots. Wild stallion lets girl put harness on him and finds himslef promptly gelded (he’s too wild now) and placed in a stall (can’t have him roaming about for other riders).

    At this point, wild stallion wants to be rode by girl and watches forlornly as she eyes another wild stallion in the open range and braiding a new harness him.


  260. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 20:00 #

    I like plating, I am more creative and I pay more attention to detail. She is the better cook but I like cooking more.


  261. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 20:03 #

    I love how she is disqualifying alpha males whilst being married to one. “Me thinks the lady doth protest too much!”


  262. judgybitch June 15, 2013 at 20:06 #

    Are you referring to me?

    I wasn’t disqualifying alpha males. Just trying to parse the exact definition. And there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of consensus!


  263. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 20:19 #

    Since you brought up mores, please read T.D. Unwin’s ‘Sex and Culture’. It defines the societal advancement of a society in relation to its sexual mores. Quite a good read and a good introduction to the fall of most societies of antiquity.


  264. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 20:20 #

    And a Thesis that would not dare to be written in today’s world.


  265. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 20:23 #

    I’m considered a racist because I don’t think immigrants should try to turn Canada into the same type of shithole they emigrated from.


  266. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 20:36 #

    He could be 65 year old.


  267. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 20:38 #

    You could also transpose that skillset onto a LTR and realize that it is a guide and not a bible.


  268. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 22:29 #

    You’re missing the fact that if you are an alpha/asshole, all the asshole goes away when the woman ‘looks’ at you. It’s like prettiness and bitchiness. Everyone is an 8, it all evens out.

    I had a girl tell me that my wife was so pretty and I was so lucky to be married to her. I told her “Not really, they are only as nice as they have to be.”


  269. Reggie June 15, 2013 at 22:31 #

    Ya, Alpha = Asshole! If he were a little “Creepy” dude delivering that poem he’d be an asshole.


  270. thehumanscorch June 16, 2013 at 02:31 #

    “So, Apple, how many times does our casual sex slut have to do this before she figures out that she doesn’t have a gold-plated, velvet lined pussy?”



  271. matt June 18, 2013 at 03:26 #

    the majority of men are considered betas or omegas in reality. alphas are reserved for the men at the top of the food chain (the one percent). But people use the term alpha and beta in different ways…in terms of pschology most people have a little of both which is a good thing. just type in psychology alpha beta test and you can find which one you are more likely to be. betas are more patient and laidback and will defer…of course this can be negative if you are too beta and allow people to walk all over you. alphas are more demanding, prone to temper, risk takers, want things done as asap, impatient etc. interestingly enough extreme alphas are more prone to heart attacks. Again it is an extreme rarity when a person is all alpha or all beta. There needs to be a balance.


  272. matt June 18, 2013 at 03:55 #

    not to mention if a woman is college educated the rate of women initiating divorce is closer to 90 percent. the more indoctrinated she becomes by university propaganda the more likely she is to divorce. scary thought if you are a man wanting to marry an educated woman with a degree (and I like well read educated women but it seems uni is poisoning young minds-particularly in the humanities and social sciences).


  273. matt June 18, 2013 at 04:36 #

    what a sweet lady you are. sorry to burst your bubble but their aren’t many women today who are like you. I’m a young man but I’ve been around long enough to see this both in the girls I’ve dated and other guys who have faced the same thing. This phenomenon is nothing new and has been around and gotten worse of the years as second wave feminism has taken hold and poisoned young women against men.


  274. matt June 18, 2013 at 05:12 #

    in todays no fault divorce world 50 percent isn’t great odds especially since its mostly women initiating the divorce. plus you don’t know how happy the other 50 percent are. if a man is lucky he will never have to know the painful sting of divorce and losing his house and kids and live in married bliss (the way it was meant to be). That man will never have to know the way the other half lives. Still what you’re saying doesn’t forego the fact the inherent risk involved in a man getting married and how much he has to lose. A flip of the coin and you could be the other guy. Guys have always been the risk takers but many men have decided marriage isn’t worth the risk. Type in “herbivore men” of japan. Young men are refusing to get married in droves.


  275. matt June 18, 2013 at 05:32 #

    also another thing…the good women usually get snatched up quite early (in their early to mid 20s). my mom was 23 when she married my dad (33). my parents had four beautiful children (2 beautiful daughters and 2 strong sons who went on to become athletes in college-one in football and one in baseball). Once these young women who want to settle down are gone that stiffens the competition for men to find women with these qualities (which are harder to come by these days). There is nothing wrong with me that I can tell. I’m 220 pounds of solid muscle…a good looking 6’2 latino with a career and a bachelors degree in economics (5 percent body fat ladies :p). But quality women are hard to come by. The “me” generation is in full effect. I’m definitely beta in that I’m cautious about women and relationships…I have seen men get seriously burned (my dads first wife took him to the cleaners and he never saw his son again from his first marriage -parental alienation).


  276. Bob Wallace June 21, 2013 at 15:01 #

    Obviously someone who can’t tell the difference between the mythos and the logos. Look it up before you again make a fool of yourself.


  277. Bob Wallace June 21, 2013 at 15:02 #

    Another uneducated fool who knows nothing of history. But then, what Lost Boy on the Manosphere does?


  278. Exfernal June 24, 2013 at 23:16 #

    Apparently so.


  279. Exfernal June 28, 2013 at 00:06 #

    A review article about roles of oxytocin (PDF).


  280. Exfernal July 1, 2013 at 10:48 #

    Ah, and in the subtitles to the 7th part there is bad translation at the 15 min mark. Where one reads “bisexual” (which should refer to sexual orientation only), there is a better alternative – “intersex“.


  281. Exfernal July 10, 2013 at 16:12 #

    Heh, and here we find “natural alphas”:

    1) Individuals who are partnered typically have lower testosterone levels than individuals who are single. However, this was found to apply solely to individuals possessing a restricted sociosexual orientation. Partnered, unrestricted men and women’s testosterone levels are more similar to the levels of single men and women.

    2) There is also evidence that differences in the AVP receptor gene between individual members of a species might be predictive of differences in social behavior. One study has suggested that genetic variation in male humans affects pair-bonding behavior. The brain of males uses vasopressin as a reward for forming lasting bonds with a mate, and men with one or two of the genetic alleles are more likely to experience marital discord. The partners of the men with two of the alleles affecting vasopressin reception state disappointing levels of satisfaction, affection, and cohesion.


  282. Exfernal July 10, 2013 at 16:25 #

    So, would a “natural alpha” sire Alphas as well? Apparently so.

    The question remains: what percentage of Alphas would a modern society withstand?


  283. Goober July 18, 2013 at 21:22 #

    So my wife not being up for sex (very often) with any man – not just me, mind you – is somehow a reflection on me?
    As for your younger and lighter quip, we started dating when we were seventeen. Not many “alphas” came before me.

    But thanks for playing …


  284. Goober July 18, 2013 at 21:39 #

    Also, I come from a place where when things are broken, we fix them. Seems like you and some others want everything perfect and if it isnt you shit can it. Kind of like the women you bitch about.

    On the advice of her doc, my wife stopped taking the pill and we’re almost back to 100% since my last discussion of this topic.


  285. BeenThere September 28, 2013 at 12:52 #

    Men get very mixed messages from women. Contemporary men try to please or pander to women. Then they find that this does not please women. So they try to play these sorts of pick up games.

    But fundamentally, what women want is men that they can respect. But they don’t want men who are authoritarian.

    In psychology this is called a ‘double bind’. A common eexample of a double bind message is advertising that says:


    and then tells you how to do it.

    In other words, you are an individual only if you conform.

    Women and feminists want men to have authority and to be ‘authentic’, hence independent, but only in so far as this conforms to ‘what women want’. The ‘real’ or ‘authentic’ men knows himself (and hence what he wants), and somehow this is supposed to coinsid with him knowing (a la Mel Gibson) with what women want, which in reality is self-contradictory.

    This is a case of the double bind situation. As defined in Wikipedia:

    “A double bind is an emotionally distressing dilemma in communication in which an individual (or group) receives two or more conflicting messages, in which one message negates the other. This creates a situation in which a successful response to one message results in a failed response to the other (and vice versa), so that the person will automatically be wrong regardless of response. The double bind occurs when the person cannot confront the inherent dilemma, and therefore can neither resolve it nor opt out of the situation.”

    This is the situation that men are in with respect to women in contemporary life. Warren Farrell also makes this point in relation to the way that women react to men’s advances: does a ‘no’ mean ‘no at the momen’, ‘no for the time beign’, or ‘no, not ever’. This is a mild way of putting the dilemma that every man suffers in the situation of making an advance to a women, and the reason why men want to get off the dating scene and hook up with any female that is barely ‘good enough’ ASAP.

    This I think is the simple explanation of the attempts to construct elaboate strategies that in the end are internally contradictory: the man is sensitive while at the same time being emotionally detached and self-interested. This fantasy is the standard representation of the ‘sexually attractive’ male in Hollywood movies: detached yet sensitive. It is a total female/feminist fantasy and caricature (projection) of male psychology.


  286. BeenThere September 28, 2013 at 13:03 #

    I’d say that whichever party insists on marriage gains something out of it. It might be sex, money, or ‘security’, which can be viewed as sex + money + social advantage + whatever. But the other things without sex and/or money or at least social status would not really do it. There might also be things like ‘security’ and ‘personal development’. Security can be reduced to sex + money/social status. Personal development is a more vague notion.


  287. BeenThere September 28, 2013 at 13:19 #

    So sad, yet so true. While I feel conflicted over this, I’m nonetheless happy to be out of the crap 20’s … ’twas brutal.


  288. BeenThere September 28, 2013 at 13:21 #

    That’s very nasty. Doesn’t mean there isn’t truth in it … except it’s not just American. It’s spreading like a cancer: with affluence women everywhere trade consumption (incl of pets) for sex with men.


  289. Domingo May 30, 2014 at 05:58 #

    And always make sure it’s 100% organic (some companies load their superfood up
    with Niacin and other non-organic components — go for the organic green superfood and avoid
    the Niacin hangover). There are a few factors you want to consider when purchasing a superfood
    drink powder. A common problem, particularly in larger breeds of dogs, is problems with
    their joints as they age.



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