One comment that shows up repeatedly here goes something like this:
Why don’t you like sluts?
How can you be supportive of sex-work and yet rail against sluts?
Why aren’t you more sex-positive?
Why are you such a prude?
This article at Slate, about women who are out-bro’ing the frat bros at the illustrious Princeton drinking hole called the Tiger Inn, got me thinking about slut-culture, and I feel like I haven’t done a very good job explaining what it is that I find so off-putting about it. Either that, or some readers are just retarded, which is also possible. Let’s split the difference and say I’m been remiss in explaining my slut POV and some people are stupid.
Seems fair.
Tiger Inn members like to get naked, “strum ‘penis guitars,’” projectile vomit competitively, and slather their dog food- and live goldfish-consuming pledges in ketchup, maple syrup and egg yolk. Last year, more women than men applied to join the Inn for the first time since the club became co-ed in 1991.
In the words of Princeton student Caroline Kitchener, The Tiger Inn is a place where there is no pressure for a “girl to be a girl”.
Well, if they’re not girls, then what are they?
According to writer Katy Waldman, they are “hyper-dudely”. Hyper-dudeliness requires some specific actions:
…pounding back shots, dancing on the bar, going home with someone you don’t care a lot about, and meeting your friends for brunch the next morning in your sweatpants…
At least Katy was objective enough to add the word “hyper” to her stereotype of men as drunk, uninhibited, slutty and slovenly. It’s the natural state of men to do and be these things, but some men REALLY go to town with the whole charade and “hype” up their manliness. Tucker Max, anyone?
You’ll note that Katy doesn’t ascribe any of this to the simple state of youth, or what for many students is no doubt their first taste of freedom. It’s manly to toss back shooters and dance on the bar, and when ladies do it, they are “not ladies” and “hyper-men” instead.
Le sigh. I wonder if Katy saw this neat little experiment in England where an attractive young woman propositioned random men for sex just to see what would happen. Wearing short shorts and her hair long and flowing, Andrea asks men “do you want to have sex with me?” The first guy she asked got so angry he called the police on her! Fully half the men turned her down flat.
No thanks.
Even the men who played along seemed suspicious, questioning whether she was drunk or planning a robbery. Not quite the unambiguous pack of raging boners the media likes to portray.
Turns out that the whole “random sex with people you don’t know” isn’t particularly good for anyone’s mental health, and that includes men, too.
…the results show that “casual sex was negatively associated with well-being and positively associated with psychological distress.” There were no disparities in gender when it came to the impact of casual sex.
Again, not quite the story the popular media likes to tell about random sex and sluttiness.
A routine critique of the word slut decries the fact that it is generally only applied to women, although I personally experience no dissonance using “slut” to describe promiscuous men. The general idea is that women can have sex anytime they like, and men can’t. Almost any woman can walk into a bar and walk out with a willing sex partner, while men can’t do that. No one seems to consider the fact that perhaps women are willing to lower their standards, while men are not. Andrea’s experiment demonstrates, if anything, that no, women cannot just randomly proposition men for sex and expect a 100% success rate. You can bet if Andrea has been less attractive, her acceptance rate would have been considerably less than 50%, and I suspect the inverse – an attractive man propositioning women, under the right conditions – would have a similar success rate.
No doubt, you have heard of the Clark and Hatfield study in which men and women propositioned each other for random sex, only to have ZERO women accept the offer, while 75% and 69% respectively of the men agreed to casual sex.
The studies took place in 1978 and 1982.
A few things have changed since then.
Oh my god, those jeans! Look at those jeans! How did anyone get laid?
http://www.elainehatfield.com/79.pdf
Professor Terri D. Conley of the University of Michigan decided to take another dive into men and women’s willingness to have random sex with strangers, looking at what factors contributed either negatively or positively to engaging in sluttiness.
A few intersecting things came to light:
Both men and women perceive women to be less risky partners. Very few men were willing to have random sex with other men (duh!) but plenty of women were open to sex with other women, even if the women did not identify as homosexual.
I think there is a huge part of the conversation missing when we discuss “risk” and the differences in how men and women perceive that. It is not necessarily that men perceive there to be a lower physical risk in sex with women, but probably more likely that men feel they can deal with any bad situation that arises.
Why would women be open to sex with another woman? Because they feel that in a one-off encounter like casual sex, they are more likely to be on the receiving end of pleasure.
…both women and men agreed that the female proposer would be better in bed, thought the female proposer was warmer and had higher status, and thought the female proposer would be more likely than the male proposers to give them gifts. Men and women also believed that female proposers were less likely to be dangerous than male proposers. In sum, both men and women agreed that the male proposers are less desirable than female proposers on dimensions of relevance to sexual encounters.
Here is where it gets really interesting. When women are presented with Johnny Depp (attractive) and Donald Trump (unattractive), their willingness to engage in random sex with an attractive partner leaps up to match men’s. The men were given a choice of Angelina Jolie or Roseanne Barr, and I doubt I have to explain how that went!
Here’s the headline — differences between men and women in likelihood of taking the proposer up on the offer was a whole lot closer. For the proposition by the attractive person, women were at 4.09 (2.16) to 4.16 (2.56) for men — just about a tie. For the unattractive celebrity, men were at 1.43 (.84) to women’s 1.71 (1.61) — women were higher. For the unknown person, though, no such effect. Women were at 1.86 (1.38), men were still at 3.52 (2.06). Women were only marginally more interested in the offer from a stranger than from a man generally thought ugly. Men were almost as interested in the random stranger as Angelina Jolie. The short fling results basically track this, with the fact of celebrity seriously closing the gap between men’s and women’s interest, and the gap for a stranger remaining wide. The appeal of the offer follows the same pattern: little difference in men’s and women’s response to the unattractive celebrity, little difference in their reaction to the attractive celebrity, lots of difference in their response to the stranger.
What’s the key thing here? STATUS
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/gender-differences-and-casual-sex-the-new-research/
College campuses are a great place to meet men with the status you are looking for, and who could be of higher status than a Princeton Man? Ladies who think that joining the boys for projectile vomiting contests and beer pong is a great strategy to attract high status males are utterly free to do so.
Go right ahead. It won’t work, for anything MORE than random hook-ups, but some people just have to learn everything the hard way, don’t they?
Here’s where slut culture really gets to me: most women KNOW, they just KNOW, that being a slut is NOT going to work when it comes to encouraging a relationship. Guess what? Most men know that, too. Ergo the fragility of their mental health. Hook-ups aren’t good for either MEN or WOMEN.
Some men don’t give a shit. They are not looking for a relationship and a random blowjob from a hot drunk girl is good enough. Good for them. Some women don’t care either. They are not looking for a relationship and a muffin dive from a hot drunk guy is good enough. Good for them, too.
But that is NOT what most women want. 85% of college women want to be married by age 30. They want love, family, lasting, committed relationships.
http://www.self.com/blogs/flash/2012/08/survey-most-college-women-want.html
And most women know damn well that men are not keen on marrying sluts. Very few are willing to admit to just how many sexual partners they have had before marriage.
Most women feel terrible after random sex, and most women want to get married eventually and KNOW that random sex is not a great way to go about it. But they are stewing in a sea of sluttiness that tells them their instinctive preferences are wrong and prudish and confining and crippling because PATRIARCHY.
Look at this piece from Jezebel, called “How to Be the Perfect Slut”. Being a slut is synonymous with liberation and self-actualization.
Having however much sex you want, with people you may or may not know very well, should be enjoyable, it should be easy, and it should never make you second-guess yourself. In other words, it requires that you’re comfortable with who you are and what you want, and capable of communicating both of those things. It requires you to have reached a certain level of self-actualization and self-assurance.
Enjoyable
Easy
Never second-guess yourself
Self-actualizing
Self-assured
And that is what I HATE about slut-culture. The writer at Jezebel, Callie Beusman, even admits that she wasn’t a very good slut, because she couldn’t shake that desire for a relationship to go along with the sex and it left her mentally distressed.
I wasn’t there yet, so I sucked at being casually promiscuous. I projected my anxieties about myself as a person onto the “relationships” I was having, and it put me in a state of mild psychological distress.
http://jezebel.com/how-to-be-the-perfect-slut-733975809
Rather than believe her needs and desires for sex within some sort of defined relationship is natural, normal and that ultimately, her own instincts would serve to protect her from psychological distress, she decided that she was wrong. That her needs were wrong. That her desires were wrong. That her mental distress was actually wrong. She was wrong to feel bad. She was wrong to just be herself. She was wrong to have her own wishes about how she wanted to act and behave.
And more importantly, she was a traitor to her beloved ideology.
Taking up the Mantle of Sluticity is not always a simple task, because it’s caked with centuries worth of fears and myths and horrible assumptions re: sexually active women. So how does one even go about being successful at casual sex without experiencing emotional consequences? What makes The Perfect Slut?
Sex without emotional consequences. Everything without consequence. Feminism: the radical notion that women should do anything they want without consequences.
And even when that consequence is feeling terrible about yourself, well, change your mind and get into sluthood, girl! The carousel will set you free!
If the only thing that ever happened was bunch of spoiled college girls ended up feeling shitty about themselves, I really wouldn’t give a shit. Too bad, so sad, welcome to life, ladies.
But there are some very real consequences for women who throw aside their own deeply felt requirements for physical relationships, and it’s not just women who must abide them.
When women can’t quite quash that feeling of utter loathing, they look for someone to blame. No consequences. Not for women, anyways. Who do they blame?
Oh, hello date rape. Men go to JAIL and have their lives destroyed by women who use some tequila generated courage to overcome their most basic impulses to reserving sex for the highest status males they can attract, and women end up feeling even more victimized by their own actions.
http://judgybitch.com/2012/10/22/54/
And even more tragically, very young women who buy the slut = liberty fairytale end up dead by their own hands when the magical castle of easy self-fulfilment they were promised ends up being a nightmare of never-ending terror.
How many women at the Tiger Inn are there because they feel like doing shooters and dancing on the bar and blowing random guys is just good clean fun? They don’t give a fuck? How many?
And how many are there because they have bought the story that men are drunk, wild sluts who know the true meaning of freedom and if they want to taste freedom it comes in the flavor of cock?
Sorry, that was crass, even for me, but this whole cultural story just makes me so angry. I honestly have no problem with women who truly enjoy the art of the random hook-up. The zipless fuck. No strings attached sex. Not that you need it, but you ladies have my complete and utter blessing. You’re chum that might attract the big sharks, but you will never land one. Leaving the waters clear for women who actually respect and understand their own psychologies and bodies and who are not willing to compromise themselves in the name of ideology.
Very young women are… well, young. They need guidance. Reassurance. They need love and support and friendship and kindness, especially from other women. That begins with respecting who they are and how they want to share their bodies.
Telling women to go ahead act slutty because it’s the surest path to self-actualization and fulfilment, when that is just what women do NOT want to do is more than cruel and stupid and thoughtless.
It’s hateful.
And it’s a hallmark of feminism. I’ve said it before, but I am beginning to believe I can’t say it enough.
Feminism HATES women. Young women, especially. The ones most in need of the protections of older women are the ones targeted to suffer the most. Sluttiness is cast as a moral victory over oppressive social norms that keep women from behaving like the fantasy of men feminism has concocted.
No consequences.
It won’t last.
Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences.
Robert Louis Stevenson
Lots of love,
JB
judgybitch 
I’m kinda new here so I don’t really know your background. Have you ever studied economics?
This post in particular reminds me of a lot of economics books I’ve read, particularly among the Austrians, who essentially said (paraphrasing) “the purpose of the economist isn’t to tell people what decisions to make, but rather to tell them what the consequences of any given decision will be.”
The feminists will ignore you in the same way that the general public ignored the Austrian economists. They will mistake your advice on the potential consequences of slutdom for some type of moral judgment against them. They will get all defensive and assume you are against women, when in reality you’re just trying to help them achieve what they really want. It’s a sad state of affairs.
LikeLike
Awesome! This is on point and a much more evolved argument than what you said previously, i.e. “women don’t want this; they’re brainwashed.”
Here’s my view:
1. If women want to sleep with a dozen guys in a weekend, great. Go for it. I would hope they used protection, because I think everyone should outside of a long-term committed relationship. On the other hand, she needs to own her decisions. Not much pisses me off more than people who don’t take responsibility for her decisions. This is why i get so irritated when people claim women are “brainwashed” to hate men or be promiscuous or whatever.
2. Women who claim promiscuity = being “like a man” are committing apex fallacy. Most men are not promiscuous, because their partners are limited by their personal attractiveness and/or they don’t want to sleep with that many people. A loophole here would be if a man visits sex workers, but that is somewhat different than picking up a girl who will sleep with you due to your sexual attractiveness.
3. If women want to sleep with a thousand guys, great. But you cannot turn around and say “don’t judge me.” We can judge you however we want. Freedom comes with responsibilities, one of which is owning your decisions.
4. My personal theory is that Feminism doesn’t hate women, but they are giving them bad advice so that they will be more susceptible to having a victim complex and blaming men for all their problems, i.e. becoming Feminists. Strong, confident, content women do not go around shrieking about abortion, rape, and “the patriarchy.”
LikeLike
Should say “people who don’t take responsibility for their decisions” in 1st point
LikeLike
Even when I was in college, single and lonely and desperate, I’d have hesitated if an unknown woman came up to me *in public* and baldly propositioned me for sex. Because as naive as I was then, I still knew that just didn’t happen. Either she’d ask for money, or it would be some kind of setup to humiliate me.
Try the experiment where the offer was made in a more situationally appropriate way, and the male response rate would be much higher. And most of those turning the girl down would already have girlfriends.
LikeLike
If I was in a red-light district of some city I would think a proposition was normal. And I lived in one city for a while where propositions from sex workers were illegal but not uncommon.
But yeah, women who aren’t prostitutes have thrown themselves at me a few times and it was always off-putting.
LikeLike
It’s happened to me a (very) few times in my life, but always at places where it was at least somewhat appropriate behavior. And I accepted every time it was obvious that I was being propositioned.
LikeLike
Spot on article JB. Sorry for the wall of text but…
When I was younger, I went out of my way to slut shame. I was really mean about it too. My group of friends and I had a code word for those types of girls. We’d call them “bunnies”. Because you know rabbits and all.
I was accused of being a prude but I didn’t care. I didn’t want any association with those types of girls. After college, my first job was in PR- with that came a lot of club events and a lot of club hoes. Being the “prude” that I was, whenever one of these bunnies weaseled their way into my circle, I made sure she was not only kicked to the curb, but was excluded from any future event (that I was involved in at least).
I guess a lot of my slut shaming comes from this personal vendetta that I have against them (I’ve had previous hurt at the expense of these sluts). I couldn’t get rid of all the club sluts, but I did my best to try lol.
Back before marrying my husband, we were just friends. I was always nice to girls he dated, until he brought this one bunny in particular around. I gave her hell and frequently brought up the names of guys she’s been with in conversation. It was catty and mean but I didn’t care. One time, at a launch party, I went out of my way to invite all of the guys she slept with. She went home crying that night. I laughed. My would be future husband was upset with me for that, but he eventually cut her off. He didn’t want to be known as the boyfriend to a girl with that type of reputation.
The phrase “you can’t turn a hoe into a housewife” isn’t popular by chance. It rings truth. Honestly, who wants to marry a girl who’s had more than one go around on the cock carousel?
LikeLike
I see parents playing a huge role in this, not so much for what they do but rather what they don’t. It’s no secret that promiscuity in girls is strongly linked to the absence of a father figure, and even if he is there, what does the average american family look like? The mother is a careerist ball-buster who berates her husband at every turn and has barely enough time for her family. The father is a domesticated beta, afraid of interacting with his children and especially of setting any sort of boundary. These girls receive no parental affection, so they crave attention and have been raised with no boundaries to break. What remains then is their own internal boundaries, and so they do things they would instinctively stay away from in the hopes it will bring them happiness.
LikeLike
Totally agree with this. A normal looking guy being propositioned for sex by an above-average looking woman out of the blue in the middle of a college campus… Every rational person’s brain will immediately assume this is some kind of set up (police sting, hidden camera prank, psychology experiment, etc.) and give the “socially correct” answer, which is no.
The way to run this experiment is to do it at a bar late in the evening, require a bit of small talk before the proposition, and maybe not refer to sex directly (“let’s go back to my place” rather than “let’s go back to my place and have sex”).
LikeLike
It never ceases to repulse and make me angry at the damage that feminism has done to this world, and slut/hookup culture is but another disgusting facet of what feminism has cultivated. When I was in my 20’s I thought that I would one day want to get married and have children and spend life with someone and grow old gracefully together. But I was in my 20’s during the 1990’s and I quickly thought better of it as I discovered how this feminist venom had changed and was still changing things in America. There is no way I ever wish to neither be married nor bring children into this broken world. I also do not want a wife, or relationship for that matter with some fresh of the carousel tart with a tattoo above her ass crack that has had more meat pass between her legs than an Arby’s drive through window. No I don’t want that, I don’t want some high mileage vagina that would be like either the black hole of Calcutta or throwing a hotdog down a hallway, I don’t want an STD gift that will keep on giving, I don’t want to be taken to divorce court and have half of my life taken away, I don’t want a slut for a wife that will probably be bouncing her ass on someone else’s mattress. I am much better off alone than to set myself up for that failure. Feminist aren’t real women, they are some other kind of vile species.
LikeLike
“Almost any woman can walk into a bar and walk out with a willing sex partner, while men can’t do that. No one seems to consider the fact that perhaps women are willing to lower their standards, while men are not.”
Most men aren’t willing to lower their standards any more than they already have. All men have an “attraction floor” below which they simply won’t go to have sex. By the time a man gets desperate for sex, his standards are already at the lowest common denominator anyway. But no matter how desperate he is, he would still rather rub one out to porn than have sex with a woman below his attraction floor.
You’re wrong about applying the “slut” label to men. There is no such thing as a manslut or a manwhore. Men’s primary value is not in his chastity or his lack of promiscuity. His primary value is in his confidence and dominance, and part of that is in his sexual attractiveness. By stark contrast, a woman’s prime value (for marriage or long term relationships) is in her prudence and chastity.
LikeLike
While I agree that the family that you described would have the effect on its young’uns that you suggested, I do not accept that this is “the average ” by a long shot.
There is blame to lay at the feet of parents for slut culture, but far more to lay at the feet of feminism.
Look at what she says here:
” You’re going to hate yourself for what you’re doing. You are going to feel awful. It is going to feel wrong. But you need to just ignore that and do it anyway.”
That is a recipe for miseryi I do not know what is
LikeLike
I agree with Zykos.
While I don’t want to make excuses for these sluts…I do understand a lot of it possibly comes from wanting attention because it wasn’t’ given to them when they were Children. It’s like; they’re trying to fill a void that was probably created by their neglectful parents. They fill this void by being slutty and sleeping around.
That being said, I also know plenty of women who have come from shitty neglectful childhoods who didn’t grow up to become raging sluts though.
I hate sluts. =\
LikeLike
“But that is NOT what most women want. 85% of college women want to be married by age 30. They want love, family, lasting, committed relationships.”
Then women would do well to start acting as if those things are in fact important to them.
“And most women know damn well that men are not keen on marrying sluts. Very few are willing to admit to just how many sexual partners they have had before marriage.
No, I don’t think most women know this. Yes, they don’t want to admit to their Ns, but that’s because they fear judgment from the attractive men and other women; not because they fear not being able to get married. Most women I talk to are flabbergasted to hear that their slutty pasts actually matter when it comes to commitment. Most women are genuinely shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, to have someone tell them that their Ns matter; and bluster vociferously that their slutty pasts should not matter one little bit when it comes to getting married.
“Most women feel terrible after random sex, and most women want to get married eventually and KNOW that random sex is not a great way to go about it.”
Then why do women continue doing this? I hear this all the time and I’ve yet to have anyone give me a credible response. I hear all the time that “I wanna sleep with the hot guy because if I do maybe he’ll call me the next day.” Really? How many times does she need to do this before she figures out IT’S NOT WORKING?” 5, 10, 20 times? How many times do you need to put your hand on a hot stove before you figure out that it’s hot and it’ll burn you? How many bandages, how many trips to the hospital?
LikeLike
“… I suspect the inverse – an attractive man propositioning women, under the right conditions – would have a similar success rate.”
Um… Not to blow a hole in your argument, JB, but they did just that.
Out of 100 women, not one said yes.
I really don’t think that we can chalk this up to “the story the popular media likes to tell about random sex and sluttiness”. Guys like sex, even if it’s inconsequential. Not all guys, mind you – I would have most certainly said no to the woman in that video – but many do. And some wouldn’t even think twice.
However, I think you’re correct in saying that encouraging women to be as slutty as many men are (or would like to be) is wrong. I think it’s fine if a woman DOES want to be so promiscuous, which is what feminists used to be about. But now they’re saying that promiscuity is good because it’s liberating women from patriarchy. That’s bull. Similar to shaming housewives and homemakers for not being ambitious enough, shaming women who are reserved about sex is hateful, it’s alienating, and it’s wrong. But neither should promiscuous women be shamed. Maybe that’s me wanting cake and eating it too, but all I want to see is a middle ground, where both lifestyles are accepted.
LikeLike
Hell YES! THIS!!! Thankyou, JB.
*clap clap clap clap clap*
(standing ovation)
*clap clap clap clap clap
LikeLike
“Then why do women continue doing this?”
Sometimes, women genuinely think if they sleep with a guy out of their league, he will date her. I have had discussions with naive women who don’t realize that males still want to have sex with women they wouldn’t have a relationship with.
But most of the time, she is rationalizing her physical lust. That’s why they keep making the same “mistake” – they are indulging their lust and rationalizing it with the “I want him to fall in love with me.”
LikeLike
“most of the time, she is rationalizing her physical lust.”
Yes. that is EXACTLY the point I was going for.
I’ve long maintained that she’s in it for a relationship (if she can get it), but she’s in it for the sex too. If she can parlay it into a relationship, great; but if sex is all she can get, she’ll take the sex. Because sex with a hot guy is better than a relationship with an unattractive guy. And, sex with a hot guy is better than nothing.
And to a woman, given a choice between nothing, and a relationship with an unattractive guy, she’ll pick “Nothing”. Every single time.
LikeLike
And this is why the study which claims that it’s both men and womn who can’t get sex is flawed. An attractive woman propositioning men for sex in broad daylight in the middle of the day on a college campus …. doesn’t happen. Ever. Unless it’s a setup, a prank or an experiment. Men are socially conditioned to answer “no” particularly under those circumstances.
LikeLike
We can choose whatever actions we like.
We cannot choose our own consequences.
LikeLike
I blame feminism directly for the state of the family and the relationship parents have with one another. All the roads lead to Rome.
LikeLike
It’s not about making excuses so much as it is about explaining influencing factors. At the individual level, everyone is responsible for their own decisions.
LikeLike
Spot on.
LikeLike
I love you JB but I have to strongly disagree this time.
It’s a biological imperative for men to be loose with their sexuality cause we have no reason to safe guard it…our goal is to get as much of our sperm into as many fertile wombs as possible. As a man, the only reason half those guys said no was because they knew something was up. I had a talk about this on another site and we all agreed the only true cause of the rejection was because men know the risk in random sex with women….the legal risk. The women saying no is not a surprise because women…for as much as they want to be as “free”with their sex as men will always feel like it perverts them. When it comes to sex and the wild unchained sexually, men have been their since they could remember. Women are simply inmitating something they will never fully understand.
LikeLike
I was in my 20s in the 90s too. But I love sluts.
LikeLike
Ok, Ric, even if it’s true that men resisted random sex because they feared legal consequences, I don’t think that impacts my argument that feminism encourages women to behave in a way that is EXACTLY contradictory to their interests and desires.
Women don’t WANT to be as free with their sex as men, but they are taught by older women that their reticence is actually a flaw.
That is what angers me. Teaching young women that being parsimonious with their sexual favors is some sort of character flaw.
It’s not a flaw.
It’s an instinct towards self-preservation.
LikeLike
but you can narrow it down by being careful about your actions
LikeLike
We need to make a difference beetween “fake sluts” and “real sluts”. The fake slut sleeps around for a while and gets sick, and breaks down like a little girl. And then she becomes a new born Christian and marries a nice Christian guy.
A real slut sleeps around and around an her smile gets bigger and bigger.
It is like some guys trying to play the PUA thing. Most of them really cannot cope with that. To play the PUA you have to cope with rejection once and again and again… and keep cool, and cold, with no ego, like a hunter in the mountain. Most of guys get their egos destroyed after ONE rejection. And then they run back home to cry like little boys and then they promise themselves to be a good guy and just finding a good girl to marry and create a family, etc. etc.
It is a tough game. But some people enjoy it.
LikeLike
I am afraid you are wrong in a Darwinian way, JB.
Read “Promiscuity”, by Dr. Tim Birkhead.
And you say “against their desires”. I think female sex fantasys are wilder than male ones.
LikeLike
“feminism encourages women to behave in a way that is EXACTLY contradictory to their interests and desires.
This is true.
“Women don’t WANT to be as free with their sex as men, but they are taught by older women that their reticence is actually a flaw.”
Oh yes they do want to be as free with sex as men are. It’s just that their sex drive isn’t as strong (because men have 17 times more testosterone) and it’s that they find many fewer men attractive than men find women. So when a woman meets a man she is really hot for, there’s nothing stopping her from having sex with him other than her own moral character and upbringing.
There is NO other explanation for so many women concentrating their sexual efforts at the top 20% of men. It’s not 80% of women doing this, but I’d guess it’s a good 50%.
LikeLike
“under the right conditions” is the important part. these studies were in broad daylight
LikeLike
Again, I agree that bad parenting is a contributing factor. I just don’t think it is the major factor.
Consider a conversation I had with my sister the other day.
She confided in me that she was ashamed of the fact that secretly, what she really wanted to do was stay home with her son and be his Mom instead of dropping him off at daycare every day.
Ashamed!
Ashamed that she wanted to be a mother and put the most important thing in her life front and center; that she was secretly more interested in fulfilling her biological imperative than she was in growing her career!
She said that if it weren’t for the shameful social stigma associated with being a stay at home mom, that is what she would choose to do.
Feminism isnt about choice. It is about purposely manipulating women into making decisions that will make them miserable out of envy greed and malcontent.
Its just the most evil thing I can imagine.
LikeLike
You do understand that what people say and do, and what they actually know and feel are two different things, right?
Unless she’s an idiot, a person knows that their n count matters to future monogamous partners.
LikeLike
Most women want to be as free with sex as men do, when sex with a sufficiently attractive man is on offer.
LikeLike
Since men are killing off marriage due to the high negative consequences, the “just get married” answer isn’t going to work. I think the real answer is going to be “be as slutty as you can emotionally stand”. The problem is that it will take one generation until we’re there.
Think of it this way, women used to go nuts when they failed to keep their virginity until marriage. Now they don’t even think about that. Women will adjust to the semi-slut lifestyle once it becomes the only one available, which is happening faster than you might think.
LikeLike
Goober:
No. There is what women say, and what women do. Women tend to do what they feel. So there’s a direct connection in my view and in my experience between what she feels and what she does. She isn’t influenced by what she knows (assuming she knows anything about a connection between her N and future monogamous relationships).
LikeLike
On that point I absolutely agree.
The lie of feminism is that it posits a interchangeable dynamic between male sexuality and female sexuality. Feminist want female sexuality to more closely resemble male sexuality but the lie is that both are completely separate things. This isn’t to say female sexuality isn’t as intense or strong as male sexuality but they are expressed differently for different functions. Men watch porn, we jerk off more, we goto strip clubs, we fuck with any girl we can and we think about this stuff a LOT during the day. This makes sense for the male though cause when you look at our reproductive function it doesn’t serve our interest to be prudes or conservative…most religions in the world adopt practices which purposefully repress the male sex drive.
Female sexuality is clearly driven by the same motive that informs all sexuality but it isn’t gonna have the same face as male sexuality. I always laugh when feminist articles ask why women don’t masterbare as much, why don’t they fuck as wildy, why don’t women watch more porn ect ect and I’m like”well….why would they”.
If the pill or condoms didn’t exist does anyone think people would actively encourage women to be sluts. Sure we have the technology to negate that thinking but the reptile brain has yet to rewrite millions of years of evolution in favor of 50 or so years. It does anger me too when I see women sold the lie that they can fuck just like men or be sluts because its enforcing a principle that doesn’t apply to their sexuality.
In short, saying women should be sluts like men is like saying a organge should smell,taste,look and feel like a apple.
LikeLike
So here’s my question, JB:
When the heavy casualties of slutitude become undeniable, what will happen next? A total subjugation of men by social and legal standards? A return to Victorian Era prudism from women? Or what?
LikeLike
-I also do not want a wife, or relationship for that matter with some fresh of the carousel tart with a tattoo above her ass crack that has had more meat pass between her legs than an Arby’s drive through window.
-I don’t want some high mileage vagina that would be like either the black hole of Calcutta or throwing a hot dog down a hallway.
-I don’t want an STD gift that will keep on giving.
-I don’t want to be taken to divorce court and have half of my life taken away.
-I don’t want a slut for a wife that will probably be bouncing her ass on someone else’s mattress.
-I am much better off alone than to set myself up for that failure.
And the First Church of Manosphere said, AY-MEN!
LikeLike
It will be the same old same old, if you ask me.
The rich of every race, every ethnicity, every variable will figure out that the unwashed slutty masses can be readily exploited and power can be consolidated in the nuclear family.
Once that power becomes a big enough force, the dissolution of that family will become very difficult.
Aristocracy. Set the lower classes against one another, divide them, keep them in conditions amounting to desperate poverty, and you have a vulnerable workforce that can be used and abused to no end.
The smart poor will see that the remedy is marriage and family. It will take generations for them to rebuild what they have lost.
In the meanwhile, cha-ching! The unified family cashes in.
Right now, it’s easy to dissolve the marital bonds and let women walk away with the spoils because the spoils aren’t big enough for anyone to give a shit.
That is changing rapidly. Wealth continues to consolidate. When the hoi polloi becomes unruly, women will do what they have always done: seek the protection of willing men. Husbands tend to be pretty good at that gig.
In exchange for fidelity and loyalty.
When the alternative is to face down the masses whom you have encouraged to “eat cake”, believe me, women will race to the shelter of men. Who will only provide it for those women they deem worthy.
The sad truth is that most women and most men will find themselves fucked harder than they ever imagined possible.
I’m trying to clue young women in to what is in store. Get on board the marriage train, ladies, and understand what the ticket will cost. And then pay it.
It’s the only way to survive.
It’s always been the only way to survive. Together, we are strong. Men and women. Divided, we are destroyed.
Pick a side: winner or loser.
The winning side is men and women working together. Complementing and not competing.
LikeLike
Men need to abandon marriage completely. Marriage is a roiling calamity for men and you are on shrooms if you ever think laws will be reformed. I’ve been talking about these issues for well over a decade and I can count on one hand the number of women I have met in real life who will even slightly acknowledge there is a problem. I am so glad that FINALLY some men are waking up to what a disgusting sham marriage is.
LikeLike
An outstanding article. Now awaiting the backlash of feminist ragefest.
LikeLike
Right now, it’s easy to dissolve the marital bonds and let women walk away with the spoils because the spoils aren’t big enough for anyone to give a shit.
That is changing rapidly. Wealth continues to consolidate. When the hoi polloi becomes unruly, women will do what they have always done: seek the protection of willing men. Husbands tend to be pretty good at that gig.
In exchange for fidelity and loyalty.
I’m trying to clue young women in to what is in store. Get on board the marriage train, ladies, and understand what the ticket will cost. And then pay it.
It’s the only way to survive.
It’s always been the only way to survive. Together, we are strong. Men and women. Divided, we are destroyed.
The winning side is men and women working together. Complementing and not competing.
So many good things here.
This is basically the old school pitch, but it’s the correct one, the one that’s kept the world intact all this time, feminist rhetoric notwithstanding.
The biggest obstacles now are:
-Slut Mentality
-Unfair legal practices against men
So even if it’s changing rapidly the Slut Horse is out of the barn, it’s going to take something monumental to reverse the tide for today’s women.
When the alternative is to face down the masses whom you have encouraged to “eat cake”, believe me, women will race to the shelter of men. Who will only provide it for those women they deem worthy.
The sad truth is that most women and most men will find themselves fucked harder than they ever imagined possible.
This made me laugh out loud. We can already see how true this is with the 40 spinster post wall cat women, but again, I shudder to think of what chain of events will have to happen to shut the mouths of the Jezebel writers and their ilk.
LikeLike
This rings true with me also, even though I don’t have kids yet. I’d love to just work p/t and take care of my husband and have an orderly home.
LikeLike
This hit home with me in a big way
LikeLike
Don’t be ashamed of that. Your instincts and desires are in line with those of thousands of years of happy, contented women.
The women who want to shame you for that are bitter harpies who died regretful and alone. Don’t fall for their BS.
LikeLike
You misunderstood. I was merely trying to make a point that these women know fully good and well what they’re doing .
Only an idiot would actually think that n count wouldn’t matter to the future spouse
LikeLike
I also want to address something else you said here: Among the biggest ways men are going to “get fucked, good and hard” is if we get married. If men keep a low profile, mind their p’s and q’s, and practice common sense self-protection we’re going to get by just fine.
Women are huge, huge liabilities to men’s health and welfare. I celebrate the fact that women don’t think they need marriage right now, because that is preventing more men from making a dreadful mistake. I hope they wake up before they do get married.
LikeLike
I’ve been meaning to ask you for awhile JB…..what do you think MGTOW and do you support it?
LikeLike
“There is blame to lay at the feet of parents for slut culture, but far more to lay at the feet of feminism.”
Parents only have so much influence. I had great, very involved parents with strong morals but there were a few things I did as a young adult that would not have approved of had they known.
It was not them, it was not feminism, it was Western Civilization and American culture.
Mind you, the stuff I did back then is nothing compared to know, very mild. They crowd I hung with was not a “bad” one. I was an introvert mostly. But the overall culture of one’s country and how young people in general filter it will effect individual young people.
Peer pressure? Not really. There was no “pressure” and I was more individualistic than most.
Again, its just our culture here.
As far as “sluts” I wouldn’t get all bend out of shape.
There is a slim minority of highly promiscuous men and women who find each other.
The rest of us are either having “relationship sex” or going without.
Its just that in our, again, “culture”, the media broadcasts abnormal behavior as normal.
The best thing to do is not to tune into Western or American media.
LikeLike
Highly promiscuous men and women are a minority in the population. And they find each other to have their highly promiscuous casual sex with.
The rest of us are just having “relationship sex” or going without.
And we manage to find each other too.
None of us has to worry about us or our kids being infected with the “slut virus” unless we are ourselves are associating with the highly promiscuous.
But its interesting to see a porn supporter protest sluts.
If one is anti-slut I would expect them to be anti-porn as well.
Congruency and all that.
LikeLike
“While I don’t want to make excuses for these sluts…I do understand a lot of it possibly comes from wanting attention because it wasn’t’ given to them when they were Children. It’s like; they’re trying to fill a void that was probably created by their neglectful parents.”
That would account for some of them but not all.
Remember that there are even some people who willingly enter the sex industry, porn or otherwise, who come from loving, stable family backgrounds.
There is a minority of people out there in the world who are just genuinely promiscuous by nature.
Again its not a problem for the rest of us relationship oriented folk because the promiscuous manage to find each other easily enough.
LikeLike
“I don’t want some high mileage vagina that would be like either the black hole of Calcutta”
Hey now! I’ve been to Kolkata and its not a bad place at all. Great book stores, great culture, great food, great people, great coconuts.
LikeLike
“But that is NOT what most women want. 85% of college women want to be married by age 30. They want love, family, lasting, committed relationships.”
Right. And 85% of college women are not having a different one night stand every weekend.
The vast majority of college students are either having “relationship sex” or going without.
The highly promiscuous are a minority of students and they recycle sex amongst each other.
LikeLike
“I really don’t think that we can chalk this up to “the story the popular media likes to tell about random sex and sluttiness”. Guys like sex, even if it’s inconsequential. Not all guys, mind you – I would have most certainly said no to the woman in that video – but many do. And some wouldn’t even think twice.
However, I think you’re correct in saying that encouraging women to be as slutty as many men are (or would like to be) is wrong. I think it’s fine if a woman DOES want to be so promiscuous, which is what feminists used to be about.”
– Male OR Female, the highly promiscuous are a minority and they manage well enough to find each other and recycle sex amongst each themselves.
The rest of us “relationship oriented’ folks have nothing to worry about.
There is no “promiscuous virus” that we can get infected by.
LikeLike
This is false. There is a minority, male or female, of highly promiscuous people. The rest of us are largely “relationship oriented”.
YOU may be promiscuously inclined, but do not project that onto ALL men.
LikeLike
Since men are killing off marriage due to the high negative consequences, the “just get married” answer isn’t going to work. I think the real answer is going to be “be as slutty as you can emotionally stand”.
–
Nope. Again, its not a choice between two extremes “marriage only or promiscuity”.
The vast majority of Western people fall in between. That is we are “relationship oriented”.
We will have relationship sex, not random one night stands.
LikeLike
OK I’m beating a dead horse with that, but we are there already. What will happen next is exactly what is happening NOW.
That is, a slim minority of highly promiscuous people will recycle sex amongst themselves, while the majority rest of us will have “relationship sex”. That is sex within a relationship with a girlfriend/boyfriend or husband/wife.
There will also be celibates, as there are now, either voluntary or involuntary.
But there is no false dichotomy of “everyone either must be promiscuous or must be Victorian Era prude”.
There are many more choices than that.
LikeLike
100 percent illegitimacy rates and single parent homes are the goal?
Quite the phyrric victory there. Unless you also hope humans will stop reproducing and die off as a species? Children are huge liabilities.
LikeLike
Late to the party but here you go -> http://i.imgur.com/Tt5Ny95.jpg
LikeLike
So you’re saying it’s my fault if frivolous women get knocked up by cads? Nope. Not my problem.
Women have declared en masse that they should get to do whatever the heck they want. They support their male enablers and hurl invectives at people who try to curtail their behavior.
It’s not my job to tame feral animals, especially when doing so is very likely to get me in trouble.
LikeLike
“There is NO other explanation for so many women concentrating their sexual efforts at the top 20% of men. It’s not 80% of women doing this, but I’d guess it’s a good 50%.”
If this were true how come every time I leave the house I see very ordinary, nothing-special men with spouses, or girlfriends?
Average and below average men are in relationships. In fact, that is the MAJORITY of men who are in relationships.
LikeLike
This comment kind of needs to be its own post. Though I don’t agree with everything (because its radical as shit!) it is insightful and addresses a lot of questions people have today. More specifically the benefits of marriage for both men and women and what each gender should bring to the table to make one successful.
Just understand for most women fidelity and loyalty goes BOTH ways, most of us are not okay with our husband fucking prostitutes.
LikeLike
For men out there who do believe marriage is a disgusting sham, be sure to wrap your shit up or get the “snippedy snips” because having children out of wedlock should be OUT OF THE QUESTION!
That applies to women who don’t want to get married either.
LikeLike
@ Take Back Your Face. I have read your comments and I agree. I think people are in fact over-exaggerating the amount of individuals who are genuinely promiscuous.
There are definitely more choices out there.
LikeLike
Yup. The wealthy already do this – back in the 70s, the more educated and higher-income had higher divorce rates; now they have much lower divorce rates than the unwashed masses. (And it would be even more striking a difference if so many of the great unwashed weren’t immigrants from a culture which made 50s America look like divorce-lawyer heaven.)
However, these days the wealthy and better-educated don’t preach what they practice.
LikeLike
Saying this over and over again isn’t going to make you correct.
LikeLike
No, of course not. Its true whether I say it once or one hundred times.
LikeLike
“The wealthy already do this – back in the 70s, the more educated and higher-income had higher divorce rates; now they have much lower divorce rates than the unwashed masses.”
But were the upper class 70s divorce rates higher or lower than the current middle and lower class divorce rates today?
“(And it would be even more striking a difference if so many of the great unwashed weren’t immigrants from a culture which made 50s America look like divorce-lawyer heaven.) ”
Meaning what? They come from a more marriage and family oriented culture or one that is even less marriage and family oriented than the non-immigrant population?
And which country/countries are you talking about?
LikeLike
“Just understand for most women fidelity and loyalty goes BOTH ways, most of us are not okay with our husband fucking prostitutes.”
I’ve seen some commenters say that in marriage women exchange sexual loyalty for financial support but what marriage is in an exchange of sexual loyalty for sexual loyalty.
LikeLike
Evolutionarily speaking, in the pre-civilization pure wild, it serves both human male and female to secure more than one sexual mate in order to increase genetic variety and health of offspring.
But we are far progressed beyond that now.
We’ve come a long way, baby 😉
LikeLike
“When it comes to sex and the wild unchained sexually, men have been their since they could remember. Women are simply inmitating something they will never fully understand.”
Evolutionarily speaking, before civilization, in the pure wild, both male and female humans needed to secure more than one sexual mate in order to ensure genetic replication, genetic variety and thus increase the mortality and survivability of offspring.
But such is not the case anymore.
LikeLike
“I always laugh when feminist articles ask why women don’t masterbare as much”
Guys masterbate more? Looking back on my puberty, adolesence and early adulthood, I can’t conceive how that could even be possible. They’d have to be staying home for school and work, like, everyday, to do it more.
LikeLike
“And then they run back home to cry like little boys and then they promise themselves to be a good guy and just finding a good girl to marry and create a family”
Most game attend PUA scaminars because they just want one real girlfriend.
And then just look at the women the so called “game gurus” end up with.
Hardly a 6 amongst them.
LikeLike
@ TBYF:
Most of those women settled for their ordinary, nothing special men. I would wager that a goodly portion of those “settling” women did so after discovering that they could have sex with the hot men, but couldn’t extract commitment from one of them. So, after having their fun chasing the hot men for sex for a few years, she settles for Joe Schlub and is “content”, but she’s not super hot for him – never was, isn’t now, and never will be.
What’s more, about 40 percent of those ordinary, nothing special men will eventually get divorced. Of those divorced men, around three-fourths of them will be divorced because their wives no longer want to be married to them.
LikeLike
Women are relationship oriented – TOWARD ATTRACTIVE MEN.
Most women find only about 20% of men attractive, at the absolute outside. That’s 1 in 5 men that she even notices.
If a woman can’t get one of the attractive men for a relationship (most don’t), then she settles.
The single greatest problem in the MMP is that many, many women are married to men they aren’t attracted to and it is very, very easy for those women to escape their marital obligations.
The single greatest problem in the SMP is that most women cannot extract commitment from a man they find attractive.
LikeLike
Incidentally, the fact that these women are married to these men they don’t find attractive simply means she’s not sexually hot for him. She likes him as a human being; she even loves him emotionally. She cares very much about him. But…
She just doesn’t really much want to have sex with him. He doesn’t turn her on sexually. She will have sex with him; even enjoy it sometimes; but mostly he’s just “meh” to her. This eventually manifests itself in myriad ways because it is very easy for her to end her marriage if she wants to
LikeLike
“The vast majority of MALE college students are having VERY, VERY SPORADIC relationship sex and the rest are going without.” (FIFY.)
My experience was this: Most women could get pretty much what they wanted, except one of the top men as a BF or husband (which is what THEY ALL wanted). If she wanted an average guy for a BF she had her pick amongst 4 or 5 men. If she wanted a one night stand, it was available. If she wanted to date short term amongst a few men, she could. I never saw any reasonably attractive woman going without a man, ever.
TBYF, do you have any evidence for your assertions that only a minority of men and women are promiscuous? Are they based on surveys in which women are asked about their sexual histories, activities and preferences?
LikeLike
There’s also an increasing number of married couples who are choosing to go through life childless. Its called “having it all without kids” and TIME Magazine recently dedicated an issue to this phenomena.
And yeah, men who do not want families, but are still sexually active, need to get snipped once and for all.
LikeLike
“Women are relationship oriented – TOWARD ATTRACTIVE MEN. ”
Well, I wouldn’t expect anyone to think, “you know, some day I want to meet a really unattractive guy/girl and marry him/her”
We all aspire for the attractive. That’s only natural and good.
And there is nothing wrong with settling either.
Nor is there anything wrong with becoming sexually unattracted to your spouse as you age and get up in years.
In most cultures around the world people are not expected to have explosive sex lives past 50. They gracefully seque into a dignified wise elder stage of life.
LikeLike
I do.
I’m in favor of every individual going his or her own way in life.
More power to ya!
LikeLike
“Women are huge, huge liabilities to men’s health and welfare.”
So go your own way. Case closed.
LikeLike
“Men need to abandon marriage completely.”
It starts with you. Set the example by going your own way.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
LikeLike
“Most of those women settled for their ordinary, nothing special men.”
As they should. Settling is right and good and moral.
Besides, the men are settling too. Its not like their women are any more special than they are.
Western Civilization and its “values” has sold you lies about “being the best” and “coveting the best”, which means the best partner.
That’s why human beings are treated like products here.
The reality is that none of us are a special snowflake and we don’t “deserve” the hottest guy or gal just because.
Marriage is called “settling down” for a reason. We are meant to buckle down, couple with our equal or slightly lower and raise a family.
Nor should a porn-star like sex life be expected in marriage either.
” I would wager that a goodly portion of those “settling” women did so after discovering that they could have sex with the hot men, but couldn’t extract commitment from one of them. So, after having their fun chasing the hot men for sex for a few years, she settles for Joe Schlub and is “content”, but she’s not super hot for him – never was, isn’t now, and never will be.”
I doubt it. Have you been out and about latey? Hot men are rare in this population. And a good number of them are gay or taken or both.
Ordinary women live ordinary lives. They are not pursued by the very few hot men in this population for even sex, what to speak of short-term flings.
Besides out of the very few hot, single, straight guys here, they are not approaching even hot women much of the time, as many men are shy, introverted or just not out on the prowl at work or in daily life like that.
You can log off the internet once in a while and see reality outside your doors for yourself.
Here in the US most of us go about very ordinary, low key lives with other very ordinary low key people.
Shucks, I go months without seeing even 1 truly “hot” person here, male or female.
“What’s more, about 40 percent of those ordinary, nothing special men will eventually get divorced”.
OK I concede THIS is a problem.
Americans are divorce hounds and I think its because of their unrealistic expectations of marriage.
What’s worse is after they get divorced they even start “dating again” when they still have young, impressionable kids living with them.
It is disgusting.
But it reflects the shallow values here.
LikeLike
“Almost any woman can walk into a bar and walk out with a willing sex partner, while men can’t do that.”
So?
Bars are gross and the people inside them are too.
Who cares if you can walk out with one of the dregs of society or not?
LikeLike
“TBYF, do you have any evidence for your assertions that only a minority of men and women are promiscuous? Are they based on surveys in which women are asked about their sexual histories, activities and preferences?”
I have read studies and surveys to that basic effect. But the rest is common sense, observation and experience.
I’m often on local campuses and most people have boyfriends/girlfriends, are single or in a FWB situation, not sleeping with different partners every weekend.
LikeLike
“Honestly, who wants to marry a girl who’s had more than one go around on the cock carousel?”
You’d be surprised. Many men are looking for a pretty face and fun, pleasant personality. If you are easy on his eyes and easy on his ears, they don’t really care about much else.
LikeLike
“She just doesn’t really much want to have sex with him. He doesn’t turn her on sexually. She will have sex with him; even enjoy it sometimes; but mostly he’s just “meh” to her.”
Natural. The libido wanes with age. Don’t expect to feel the same about sex at 40 as you did at 22.
“This eventually manifests itself in myriad ways because it is very easy for her to end her marriage if she wants to”
Even if she ends it and gets with another guy, the libido that is waned, is waned for life. The “excitement” of a new partner might spike it for a short while, but once the dopamine settles after the initial honeymoon phase of the new relationship ends and the familiarity starts settling it, the libido will cool down again to its tepid middle aged temperature.
LikeLike
Thank you for your gracious opinion on anything that men “need” to do.
LikeLike
I don’t care if you in particular go your own way, but you appear to have this dream that in an ideal world ALL men would eliminate marriage/living life with women as an option for them. So the only option would be bastardy, and single parent homes.
This would never happen, but as an intellectual exercise the assertion that an all bastard/single parent society would lead to a better world is pretty ludicrous.
LikeLike
Not to overstate the obvious, but about 50 percent of those children will be males, so unless you think their welfare should only count after they become adults I don’t know what you’re wishing for here, but this “dream” wouldn’t be good for anyone. Pyrrhic victory, as I said.
LikeLike
Thinking further, this is a lot like confronting and fighting vandalism by defacing, perhaps even burning down, you’re own home.
“I’ll show you for graffiti and raise it! I don’t care, when I’m finished nothing will be left, YAR!”
You don’t fight nutter with more nutter, you fight it by being the sane one.
LikeLike
Your welcome 😉
LikeLike
TBYF:
I too have read studies saying that a minority of men and women are promiscuous. In my opinion they are inherently unreliable, since men overreport sexual activity and women underreport. Women are notorious for fudging their Ns down, saying this or that sex partner “doesn’t count” for one reason or another.
Also, many of these studies ask women what they would do in a given situation. Such studies are patently absurd because one doesn’t know what one will do until presented with the situation.
We also know that many women often SAY one thing while actually DOING something entirely different. The classic example is “I just want a nice guy who will treat me right” while she later gets on the back of the biker’s motorcycle or goes home with the hot guy for a one night stand, then cries on the shoulder of her best boy buddy about why Biker Dude and Hot Guy didn’t call her back.
There are stated preferences (what women SAY they want/do) and there are revealed preferences (what women demonstrate by their actions that they REALLY want/do).
Second, I really don’t know what world you live in. Your experience is quite different from mine. I’m often on college campuses and have heard reports as well. I also lived on a college campus for 7 years. What I hear is that it’s a sexual/relationship/FWB smorgasbord for the hot men and about half the women. About 85 % of men and probably 40% of women complain they get nothing at all.
And I’m not talking about “sleeping with different partners every weekend”. Even the most slutty sluts and the most successful PUAs don’t do that. I’m talking about flings, STRs, the very occasional ONS. The kind of thing PUAs live for; and the kind of thing that takes a girl from N=2 to slut territory of N=20 before she knows it.
LikeLike
TBYF:
Those women should settle for those men. But they don’t want them, and don’t stay with them, and don’t love them or care about them. It’s very easy for those women to get out of their marriages; and a solid plurality do so.
Now, after reading your comment again, I see the issue.
You’re not an American. You haven’t lived in this SMP for years, you haven’t marinated in it; you haven’t had to live in it or with its effects. So you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
This comment by you tells me you have no idea what you’re talking about:
“Ordinary women live ordinary lives. They are not pursued by the very few hot men in this population for even sex, what to speak of short-term flings.”
TBYF, if you were paying attention, you’d see that these ordinary women are not being pursued by hot men. THE ORDINARY WOMEN ARE THE ONES DOING THE PURSUING. They are the ones throwing themselves at hot men, giving up sex to them; because sex with a hot man is better than a relationship with an average man.
Yes, I have been out and about lately. And what I see are ordinary women in this SMP expecting nothing less than the absolute best, hottest men for whatever they want.
“OK I concede THIS is a problem.
“Americans are divorce hounds and I think its because of their unrealistic expectations of marriage.”
No. Many American WOMEN are divorce hounds because of the WOMEN’s unrealistic expectations of marriage. Most men are perfectly willing to “settle” down with a nice, not-unattractive woman who will have them. It’s most women’s standards that are out of whack, not men’s.
LikeLike
TBYF:
You misunderstand. A lot of women are marrying men they NEVER WERE attracted to; just to have someone to be married to.
A lot of women were with other men sexually before they married. Most of those men were more attractive than the men they had sex with before. So the man she marries isn’t as hot as the men she had sex with before. She remembers this, and deeply resents the fact that she could get those guys for sex but not for marriage. She takes it out on her less attractive husband. She eventually divorces him. Plays out over and over again.
You are correct that there’s nothing wrong with settling. Try convincing most women of that. Most men are perfectly happy to settle.
LikeLike
TBYF:
Again, you completely missed my point.
We have many women in this SMP marrying men they NEVER WERE ATTRACTED TO. They’re marrying just because they want to get married. They’re marrying because they’re running out of time and they’ve had sex with all the hot men who wouldn’t marry them. They’re marrying because they’re 32 years old and their baby rabies has kicked in.
But since you’re not from this culture, and haven’t seen it play out over the last 30 years, you wouldn’t know about it.
LikeLike
I am not talking about women’s libidos waning with age. I am not talking about the aging process.
I am talking about women marrying men they really never were attracted to; and doing so just to lock down a guy, and for the status of being married.
LikeLike
You’ve explained it beautifully, TBYF. Media affects people on a subliminal level. I don’t tune in to the local media very often for that very reason. Sometimes (like at the grocery store checkout) it’s unavoidable – you’d have to keep your eyes closed to avoid the tabloid headlines. That’s the only reason I know who the Kardashians and Honey Boo Boo are. Broadcasting abnormal behavior as normal.
LikeLike
And by the way, TBYF, we aren’t going to get honest answers from most women by asking them them if they are attracted to their husbands. OF COURSE they are going to say they are, even if deep down they know they aren’t. They don’t want to admit to themselves that they settled or they had to settle. They can’t admit that because many times they don’t even understand it themselves.
LikeLike
Follow your dream, you won’t regret it. I got tired of working just to have my paycheck eaten up by childcare costs, gasoline costs, having to buy lots of pantyhose, and wear and tear on the car. I left the workforce just after my son’s second birthday and never regretted it.
LikeLike
lol!!
LikeLike
One of the most level-headed comments on this thread so far, IMO.
” … all I want to see is a middle ground, where both lifestyles are accepted.”
LikeLike
And “attractiveness” is subjective, isn’t it? What I find attractive is sometimes the opposite of what someone else finds attractive. I’m sure all these “average” couples find something in the other that they’re attracted to – maybe not conventionally handsome or pretty, but some quirky thing that somehow “rings their chimes.” That’s what happened with desperado and me, anyway.
LikeLike
What conditions would yield less affirmative responses from males than broad daylight?
LikeLike
“Male OR Female, the highly promiscuous are a minority and they manage well enough to find each other and recycle sex amongst each themselves.
The rest of us “relationship oriented’ folks have nothing to worry about.
There is no “promiscuous virus” that we can get infected by.”
But the fact that this feminist message of ‘promiscuity = sexual liberation from the oppressive patriarchy’ being sent to young women – and I don’t think it’s just a minority of young women, either, though I could be wrong – is troubling, no? A person isn’t born “relationship oriented”, or with a “promiscuous virus”. But as a young person, I can assure you that young people are very impressionable,
“It’s okay to be free with your sexuality, and no one should take that away from you” is a very different message than, “sexual liberation is affirmative action against your oppression, so fight the power!”
Slutwalk is where these lines get crossed an awful lot.
LikeLike
Thanks. I’m careful not to tread too far into moral relativism, but I really don’t see a problem in this case.
LikeLike
“Leaving the waters clear for women who actually respect and understand their own psychologies and bodies and who are not willing to compromise themselves in the name of ideology.”
Ideally yes, but I think it is hard to say there are clear waters when the slut culture is so pervasive. If it was so clear – for those women and the men who seek them out, then all these slut discussions would be merely a curiosity. The problem isn’t with the x% of slut=liberation women, it is the invasive nature of the slut culture and how it clouds those waters. I’m more inclined to see it as a virus, constantly seeking out a new host.
I’ve met many women who out of a LTR or marriage who fold right into slut culture because the message, the virus is stronger and (seemingly) more common than those clear waters. Whether they do this out of pluralistic ignorance or otherwise matters little, the fact is the slut culture dominates. So much so that women above who aren’t willing to compromise are forced into the shadows and/or often adopt the slut mating dance in order to compete with what they see as the dominant/preferred way. They may not actually bang, but they play the game just the same. It is exceedingly difficult to find women who hold those views above. Especially when we have a culture that celebrates the slut. We’ve got constant overlap of sluts playing good girls to land the ring and good girls playing sluts to land the BF (with the most attractive men)
I agree with Deti, women are universally shocked and often hostile when their past sexual decisions “count” in the context of relationship/marriage value/potential. At least initially. I’ve nexted several women on this basis and while they never thought those years on their backs would mean anything (because it didn’t for them), by the end they all accepted it with a sort of resignation that is similar to those who are finally realizing that relationship between age and sexual/marriage market value in the eyes of men.
LikeLike
“We have many women in this SMP marrying men they NEVER WERE ATTRACTED TO.”
And you know that ….. how?
And even *if* there are some women who do that, what does it matter? Love and attraction can grow over time AFTER the wedding. In fact, that’s the basis for many marriages worldwide.
LikeLike
Seriously? have you taken a look around you? At least 2/3 of divorces are by women, and most of those are because she just isn’t happy. This corner of the internet is full of men divorced by their wives or threatened with divorce or in sexless marriages. Go to Athol Kay’s MarriedManSexLIfe forums and spend some time there.
Yes, love can grow over time. Sexual attraction does not, however. She either is attracted or she is not. One cannot force a woman to be attracted to a man. Once she is not attracted, she probably never will be. That attraction once lost usually cannot be regenerated.
The basis for many marriages worldwide is prearrangement and both parties learn to live with it.
Youre simply wrong and misinformed about all this, TBYF.
LikeLike
TBYF:
I too have read studies saying that a minority of men and women are promiscuous. In my opinion they are inherently unreliable, since men overreport sexual activity and women underreport. Women are notorious for fudging their Ns down, saying this or that sex partner “doesn’t count” for one reason or another.
Also, many of these studies ask women what they would do in a given situation. Such studies are patently absurd because one doesn’t know what one will do until presented with the situation.
We also know that many women often SAY one thing while actually DOING something entirely different. The classic example is “I just want a nice guy who will treat me right” while she later gets on the back of the biker’s motorcycle or goes home with the hot guy for a one night stand, then cries on the shoulder of her best boy buddy about why Biker Dude and Hot Guy didn’t call her back.
There are stated preferences (what women SAY they want/do) and there are revealed preferences (what women demonstrate by their actions that they REALLY want/do).
Second, I really don’t know what world you live in. Your experience is quite different from mine. I’m often on college campuses and have heard reports as well. I also lived on a college campus for 7 years. What I hear is that it’s a sexual/relationship/FWB smorgasbord for the hot men and about half the women. About 85 % of men and probably 40% of women complain they get nothing at all.
And I’m not talking about “sleeping with different partners every weekend”. Even the most slutty sluts and the most successful PUAs don’t do that. I’m talking about flings, STRs, the very occasional ONS. The kind of thing PUAs live for; and the kind of thing that takes a girl from N=2 to slut territory of N=20 before she knows it.
LikeLike
Zach:
Are you the same Zach that used to comment at HUS?
Every woman I’ve ever known, slut or not, protested vigorously that her partner count mattered not at all when it came to her ability to commit and her value as a wife; and her value for commitment.
LikeLike
deti,
No, different Zach. Curious though, what is HUS?
Yeah there are plenty of “the past (my number) is none of your concern” women out there too – slutty or (maybe) not. Those women are an immediate next. I don’t expect any women to take a flier on my past 30-some years either – or merely accept face-value what I chose to cherry-pick from my past decisions.
There is a kind of solidarity among women when it comes to their past. Most know it matters to men, but the prevailing sentiment is that her past is somewhere between none of his biz and his problem, his insecurities. Thats fine. Most of the women I am interested in don’t drop cues that might suggest a questionable past (in my eyes) to begin with, so it often doesn’t come up in a “numbers” context. But sooner or later the truths, however small, work their way out and while I have to maneuver to avoid coming across as “judgmental” there is a point at which they know what I am looking for and whether or not they fit. The protests happen when they feel like they have been successful in their wool-pulling or shaming to find that in terms of a WIFE and the risks of marriage, I’m more willing to pass than to lower my bar.
And throw in the little spanner that is the shadow market between what is suitable to date/bang and what is desired for marriage right about when the sexual value is stalling out and declining and we can see where the anger comes from.
Regardless, there is still the overarching freedom-from-“Judgement” primarily relating to a woman’s past that inspires all kinds of protest if a man calls into question past decisions. The sexual history is just one segment of the protected class of a woman’s choices.
That said, like most men I suppose, I’m not quick to draw a “Value” conclusion but rather hold onto a strong preference for certain choices and behaviors. Many of those women are probably fine wives and are quite capable of commitment, but the no-strings, casual, one-nighter, sex as sport, etc. attitude/belief and/or past behaviors are just plain old attraction killers for me. Call me insecure, just plain unreasonable, but I don’t buy into a woman’s maturation, self-awareness, preferences, desires, intimacy, physical prowess, and values to be the result of a multi-year period of self-indulgence and familiarity with a multitude of ding-dongs.
In fact, at my age (40) I’d argue the opposite. I see more thousand cock stares than I do bright eyes of the fully evolved, self-aware, and giving. That includes men I know who are the “lucky” ones; the beneficiaries of the no-strings generation. They’ve been pounding away for 20 years and the cynicism and disrespect is something that is always just below the surface. It would be fine if was just this 10% sticking together and banging away, but I see a lot of leakage into the rest of the market, i.e. men and women resigning into the false belief that “well, I guess this is just how it is these days” and removing intimacy from the relationship dynamic.
LikeLike
Zach:
HUS=Hooking Up Smart, a website run by Susan Walsh.
Yeah, what you’re describing is the Team Woman aspect of dating. Most women are quick to defend sluts and slutty behavior, even if they themselves are not sluts. I suspect it’s the universal female aversion to judgment. In my experience, women in general and each individual woman in particular expects not to be judged by anyone (especially not by men) for their sexual behaviors and choices.
“It would be fine if was just this 10% sticking together and banging away, but I see a lot of leakage into the rest of the market, i.e. men and women resigning into the false belief that “well, I guess this is just how it is these days” and removing intimacy from the relationship dynamic.”
I have to say, I do too, even though I haven’t been in the sexual marketplace for quite a while, having been married 17 years. Once a woman starts withdrawing from intimacy with men, she starts finding it very hard to be intimate with any man.
And I don’t believe for one minute, like some do, that it’s just the 20% of promiscuous men and women who are sleeping with each other. There’s a lot of seepage into the broader market. Some of those players and cads are sleeping with nonsluts. Less often, some of the sluts are sleeping with so-called “niceguys” (mostly when the sluts start aging and pricing themselves out of the market and they start looking for suckers to wife them up.)
LikeLike
Zach:
HUS=Hooking Up Smart, a website run by Susan Walsh.
Yeah, what you’re describing is the Team Woman aspect of dating. Most women are quick to defend sluts and slutty behavior, even if they themselves are not sluts. I suspect it’s the universal female aversion to judgment. In my experience, women in general and each individual woman in particular expects not to be judged by anyone (especially not by men) for their sexual behaviors and choices.
“It would be fine if was just this 10% sticking together and banging away, but I see a lot of leakage into the rest of the market, i.e. men and women resigning into the false belief that “well, I guess this is just how it is these days” and removing intimacy from the relationship dynamic.”
I have to say, I do too, even though I haven’t been in the sexual marketplace for quite a while, having been married 17 years. Once a woman starts withdrawing from intimacy with men, she starts finding it very hard to be intimate with any man. And I don’t believe for one minute, like some do, that it’s just the 20% of promiscuous men and women who are sleeping with each other. There’s a lot of seepage into the broader market. Some of those players and cads are sleeping with nonsluts. Less often, some of the sluts are sleeping with so-called “niceguys” (mostly when the sluts start aging and pricing themselves out of the market and they start looking for suckers to wife them up.
LikeLike
You sound: bitter, angry, and mean. The fact that you had to resort to dirty tricks including badmouthing the competition to anyone who would listen, social pressure, and societal shame suggests that you were too outclassed to compete with this woman for your husband straight up.
As does the fact that you two remained “friends” until you weaseled your way into his love life by scaring off other viable romantic prospects. How does it feel to know that you’re only with your husband because you are repulsive enough to scare away the competition, and were devious enough to convince your husband to give you a chance romantically after acting like a spoiled child?
LikeLike
Yeah. But they can just lie about the number of guys they’ve banged anyway. So what’s the difference? With the exception of women who live their entire life in a small town; there’s no way a guy will know how many men a woman has banged.
LikeLike
LOL? I was being serious.
I’ve travelled all over South Asia and Kolkata is one of my favorite cities in one of my favorite states of India: West Bengal.
LikeLike
“But that is NOT what most women want. 85% of college women want to be married by age 30. They want love, family, lasting, committed relationships.”
“Then women would do well to start acting as if those things are in fact important to them. ”
They do. That’s why at least 85% of women are NOT sleeping with a different partner every weekend.
LikeLike
“But as a young person, I can assure you that young people are very impressionable,”
They are. And that’s one of the reason I’m anti-porn.
“It’s okay to be free with your sexuality, and no one should take that away from you” is a very different message than, “sexual liberation is affirmative action against your oppression, so fight the power!”
That was actually Hugh Heffner’s message. I just watched a documentary about Linda Lovelace and Heffner wrote in Playboy that she was the “Perfect Modern Sex Goddess who will take free love and liberation to the next level.”
Some “love” that. The woman was abused from start to finish.
But that’s what he and porn in general needs – an entire generation and an entire population of humans with spirits so broken that they are easily manipulated.
Porn preys on the darkest depths of human suffering and cannot exist without it.
LikeLike
“I always laugh when feminist articles ask why women don’t masterbare as much”
If the multi-billion dollar sex toy industry is anything to go by, I’d wager they could be out-masturbating dudes.
LikeLike
“TBYF, if you were paying attention, you’d see that these ordinary women are not being pursued by hot men. THE ORDINARY WOMEN ARE THE ONES DOING THE PURSUING. They are the ones throwing themselves at hot men, giving up sex to them; because sex with a hot man is better than a relationship with an average man.”
Oh puh-lese. The vast majority of ordinary, average women are not chasing down hot guys for random sex.
Women work and have lives too, what to speak of being shy or introverted or intimated or whatever.
Where the hell are all these average woman doing all this chasing of hot guys, and where do you live that there are even hot guys around?
I go months without seeing one in my neck-o-‘Murica.
LikeLike
“Yes, love can grow over time. Sexual attraction does not, however.”
Bull. Sexual attraction builds over time as well.
I and many other people are living evidence of that.
LikeLike
“I am talking about women marrying men they really never were attracted to; and doing so just to lock down a guy, and for the status of being married.”
In a marriage and family oriented culture this is a perfectly acceptable reason to marry.
LikeLike
Sounds to me like you are speaking from experience. Living with a wife who is not attracted to you.
That is your choice. No one is forcing you to stay with her.
LikeLike
Sexual loyalty for sexual loyalty. Financial support for domestic support.
LikeLike
This culture is no longer marriage and family oriented. It used to be, before feminism and no-fault divorce.
LikeLike
Even if I am, so what? That’s not the point. The point is that there are many many women married to men they aren’t attracted to and never were. And in this SMP and MMP, the key to making a marriage work is that the woman is sexually attracted to her husband. Most aren’t; and that’s a big part of why we’re in the mess we’re in.
That’s the issue. Not what is or is not my personal circumstance. Address the message, not the messenger.
LikeLike
I’m always confused when the media tries to tell me men like lots of no strings sex. It doesn’t jibe with my experience at all, which involves a) lots of male friends wanting help asking out a girl they like and b) me offering my boyfriends one-sided open relationships in the past, and having them turn me down because they don’t want to be intimate with other women. It used to boggle my mind, but now I’ve just learned to accept that few men are all that promiscuous.
As for women’s natural promiscuity…I don’t think it’s about sex, on the whole. Many of the women I know have never found sex much of a turn on, nor found men all that attractive. I think it’s more about status, about attractiveness, about proving a point. Being good in bed is like having a good career, and pulling hot men is the same as earning a good wage – only more socially acceptable to brag about. In my experience, girls who are sluts are those who don’t have much else going on in their lives. Girls who are busy with work or studying or hobbies just don’t bother with it, because they have other ways to define themselves and other avenues of appreciation. Those girls who are both interesting and actually find men attractive are the ones who end up in relationships, even if they start with one night stands, and their sexual history never seems to count against them.
I think slut-culture is mostly confined to vapid people in bars, and it’s a smaller proportion than the media would have us believe. I only know a couple of girls with n>5, but maybe fifty or so who are still virgins…most lie in between, with a boyfriend who thye sleep with but not many extra-relationship partners in their history, and personally I don’t think that’s a problem. Then again I may just be lucky, and my social groups miraculously spared from this aspect of feminist dogma!
LikeLike
I was laughing at the context of your post and the post you were answering to; as in “don’t knock it ’til you’ve tried it.”
LikeLike
Exactly! Be consistent. Put your money where your mouth is.
LikeLike
I agree with Take Back Your Face and Emma. It’s never all-or-nothing. It will always be the ones who stand out from the norm who make the most noise; therefore, we think there are more of them.
LikeLike
Adding Clover_Girl to the list of people I agree with ! ;D Your experience is mine, too.
LikeLike
“Even if I am, so what? ”
It colors your perception of everyone and everything else.
There are plenty of functional and content couples out there who have “settled” for each other.
A stroll through Walmart or any shopping mall or any other middle class retail establishment is evidence enough that average women are not chasing down hot “alphas” but are coupled with their equals. Some are even holding hands, imagine that!
LikeLike
“Sexual loyalty for sexual loyalty. Financial support for domestic support.”
That sounds about right but most couples I know work and both share in the financial and domestic support.
LikeLike
“I agree with Take Back Your Face and Emma. It’s never all-or-nothing. It will always be the ones who stand out from the norm who make the most noise; therefore, we think there are more of them.”
Right. The highly promiscuous get media time because they are not the norm.
The norm is very boring and does not make headlines:
Attention Everyone! An ordinary, average couple have settled for each other and are basically functional and content.
Breaking News, right?
LikeLike
No fault divorce? You don’t have to pay alimony in no fault divorce.
I now several no-fault divorcees and there is no alimony, only child support which is split EQUALLY between the parents.
I also know women who are denied passports because they have not paid child support even though their children are now grown, living near to them and using them as babysitters for the grand-children.
Their ex husbands made the child support mafia go after these women out of spite, not out of need for money for the kids.
And not those same ex husbands have very little to do with their grown children and NOTHING to do with their grandchildren.
They sure as heck ain’t babysitting ’em like grandma is.
And yet these women are still denied travel outside the US !
LikeLike
Where do you draw the line? Like… How many cocks would I have to swallow before you would brand me and ship me off to slut-quarantine? Just curious.
LikeLike
“Once a woman starts withdrawing from men, she finds it very hard to be intimate with any man.”
More likely, she started out having intimacy difficulties, and the promiscuity actualized from her insecurities.
LikeLike
I think, by a lot of your standards, I am one of those mythical and dangerous creatures, a slut.
I am 28, and unmarried, but in a kickass relationship. I began dating when I was 16. Here’s my count for a dozen years:
5 year-plus relationships
3 month-long flings
1 friend I slept with half a dozen times over a 5 year period whenever we happened to be single
2 male friends I slept with once or twice
1 female friend I slept with twice
2 couples who asked me to their bed with them
1 true one night stand
I don’t have a low back tattoo, or anything. I don’t wander around in spandex hot pants, propositioning strangers. Because I had a solid, comprehensive sex education, and I am vigilant, and I knew all of my bedmates pretty well, I encountered no STI’s, or accidental pregnancies, ever. I doubt I would seem particularly slutty to anyone in real life.
I didn’t start out with the intention to sleep with 17 people. But I did, and I won’t lie about it.
My main regret is this… I know how many times I have felt disappointed, romantically, in that time, so I am sure I disappointed others as many times. Doing bad feels bad.
That’s my past, and I am hearty enough to live with it. But if I had a 16 year old daughter, I certainly wouldn’t advise her that sleeping with 17 people guarantees happiness.
LikeLike
Aye:
IMO, 10 or more cocks is slutdom.
LikeLike
“It colors your perception of everyone and everything else.”
No. I’m looking at facts. Like half of those “functional” couples you’re talking about will get divorced, mostly at the woman’s behest, because she’s “unhappy”. That’s not my perception. That’s fact.
LikeLike
But like I said before, you’re not an American, you haven’t been immersed in the culture, so you are simply ignorant and misinformed. It’s not your fault; you are simply not a credible source.
LikeLike
The hell you don’t have to pay alimony in no fault divorce. You have no idea what you’re talking about. If she wants out of the marriage and he’s the sole breadwinner, he WILL pay alimony for a set period of time, usually at least a year, to let her get on her feet. That’s fault or no fault.
Child support is never split equally. The higher earner pays child support. The mother almost always gets custody; the father always pays. Child support is simply a tax on the father’s income.
I’ve heard of passport denials to fathers not paying child support, but NEVER mothers who fail to pay. NEVER.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re a troll. I’m done with you.
LikeLike
If you’re a taxpayer, it kind of is your problem.
If men are collectively “pump and dumping” and women are collectively living on state welfare, then men are still collectively supporting children, only everyone is getting a far inferior outcome than a man singularly fathering children in committed union with a woman.
LikeLike
I didn’t say it couldn’t be split, or that it can’t go the other way. I know a woman who is a lawyer, and now a judge, with 3 children. Her husband raised the kids who are now in adulthood, and they are a very happy, close family.
And I chose my profession (I am a massage therapist) partly because I would’ve able to make my own hours to supplement my hypothetic husband’s income while still keeping the hypothetic kids out of the hands of deranged strangers in a day-care setting.
LikeLike
Ah! Then I am a slut and a half.
LikeLike
I agree. Most unethical.
LikeLike
And PLEASE don’t breed!
LikeLike
@deti,
Funny that you would question whether or not Zach posted at HUS. Are you seriously gonna’ tell me that you haven’t noticed who it is that you’ve been sparring with this whole thread? Couple of hints. She goes by MANY names. She has an eastern background. She has a habit of monopolizing threads by posting as many comments as everyone else combined. Any guesses?
LikeLike
Fuck!, I love you writing, like a man is fucking hard to find a women, and well, I think that if you like a women just because she is pretty you are a fucking stupid, maybe that is why i had never had a girlfriend, haha!.
LikeLike
Hi, didn’t read through all the comments so maybe someone addressed this already. It seems that in the analysis of the increase in “raunch”, “porn”, “slut” etc. culture, there is a factor that is consistently left out. The economic factor as related to population. Never before in history has the human population been so high. At the same time, economic opportunity for those born poor, uneducated, unintelligent or just plain unlucky is dwindling. There is literally a glut of attractive young women and men, and “supply and demand laws” result in the inevitable decline in “price” (value) of the supply. I am not saying this is the only factor (duh! there are many!!), but I believe it definitely contributes. There are a lot of desperate people out there, and many are willing to do things for money that maybe they would not under a better, more stable economy.
LikeLike