This is what emotional abuse looks like

11 Aug





You know, I was going to post this as an unannounced reversal, and then put my usual “Oh, oops, I got that wrong” spin on it at the end.  But as I started to change the genders (and very little else), I found myself getting upset.  The idea that any husband would treat his wife like this, and then write about it in a lighthearted sort of way was genuinely distressing.


All my protective instincts towards the imaginary wife were activated.  I felt myself growing angry and indignant at the husband. How dare you? How dare you treat another person like this? One you supposedly love? How dare you treat this like a joke?  How dare you write about this as if it’s funny, or just par for the course?


And mostly, I thought to myself “why the fuck are you living like this”?




Run.  Run away, far and fast.  Have some respect for yourself. Believe you are worthy of something better than this.


I’m going to post this as if it were a wife writing about her husband, but it’s not. This is Robert Crampton, writing about his life with his wife Nikola. I have reversed the genders just to illustrate how completely awful this whole thing is.  Robert is being abused.




And he finds it funny.





‘I hear my husband before I see him. Most of his words begin with an F’

So, to recap: last week’s cliffhanger left me standing next to my Volvo, a Volvo firmly wedged in a boggy pothole on a forest track in France. The children, covered in mud following a failed clutch attempt at liberation, have trudged off to fetch my husband from our house a few hundred yards away. I can’t pretend to be much looking forward to his arrival.


Over the previous 20 years, the occasions on which Robert has told me on no account ever to try driving along this track probably number more than 100. Something tells me he will be reminding me of this advice in the very near future. Like a condemned woman walking to the gallows, I look around at the beauty of the woods, turn my face to the sky for a final time, inhale deeply.


I hear him before I see him. Thirty or so yards ahead of the immobilised car, the track takes a sharp turn to the right. Beyond that turn, a voice is growing louder. Most of the words begin with an F. Others include “idiot”, “pathetic” and “loser”. And now he’s in view – tall, muscular, terrifying – picking his way swiftly through the ruts and bumps, the children, plus Cousin Susan, trailing miserably behind.


Best not to dwell on the next ten minutes. I am, of course, eviscerated. As is, less predictably, my daughter.


“I didn’t expect anything more from her,” Robert tells Rachel. “But I expected more from you” – an interesting insight into my husband’s opinion of his wife. Announcing he will have nothing to do with any efforts to recover the car, Robert departs. Once he’s safely out of sight, Cousin Susan offers me a consoling pat on the shoulder.


“We need some help,” I announce. “I’ll go and talk to the farmer.”


“Do you want me to come with you?” asks Susan. I look at Susan, taking in the ponytail, the Harry Potter specs, the sunburnt arms similar in colour to the bright red vest and shorts, the crappy John Lennon tattoo, the flip-flops. What goes down well in Shoreditch, I decide, might not play so well in the ultra-conservative back-of-beyond French countryside.


“No,” I say to Susan. “You stay here. I’ll take Rachel.”


Rachel and I plod up to the farmer’s house. A boy of about 5 comes to the door, surveying us shyly through the glass.


“Est-ce que il papa dans la maison?” I shout. The kid shakes his head – not surprising, I realise, as I’ve just asked him, partially in Italian, if the Pope is in the house.


A seven-year-old girl appears, big eyes wide and fearful. Rachel smiles at her and she smiles back. Bringing Rachel instead of Susan, I reflect, is the first decent decision I’ve made so far today. Now a woman joins the gathering on the other side of the door. She is also uncertain. Finally, in what I can’t help noticing is a classic demonstration of the type of traditional non-abusive patriarchal set-up I have not enjoyed for so much as one solitary second of my family life, Thierry the farmer materialises and opens the door.


“Ah, bonjour monsieur,” I say, flapping my hands in what I hope is a reassuringly Gallic fashion. “Ma voiture est dans le forêt. Dans la boîte.” Thierry lifts an eyebrow. I have just told him my car is in the forest. In the box. Still, he latches on quickly enough, and moments later we’re climbing into the rather exciting cab of the massive pick-up truck parked in the drive.


Susan emerges from behind a tree. “Il y a Susan. C’est ma cousin,” I say, as in, “There is Susan. It is my (male) cousin.” Thierry nods in understanding.


“Can I get in as well?” says Susan.


“No,” I tell her. We trundle off towards the woods, Susan following on foot.


It’s all pretty straightforward after that. Thierry reverses the pick-up down the track. He’s friendly enough, and God knows I’m grateful to the man, but it’s not entirely necessary, to my mind, for him to tell me 3 times in the space of 200 yards that driving an ordinary car on this terrain is not advisable because, well, you can get stuck. Mate, I feel like saying, you’re starting to sound like my husband.


Still, that’s the French for you. When we round the corner and he spots the Volvo in his mirror, Thierry actually says, “Oo là là.” I fish a tow rope from the boot of the Volvo, Susan tries to make a contribution by jamming a few twigs under the tyres, Thierry does a bit of shrugging and lip-pursing, Rachel tells Susan to stand aside, Thierry hauls us to solid ground, I dispatch Rachel to fetch him a couple of bottles of wine.


“All sorted,” I tell Robert, trying to sound all efficient.


The bollocking resumes, however, and continues for some time.




Robert, who is fact, the victim in this narrative, writes a whole series of columns called Beta Male, in which he relishes the abuse his wife heaps on him. Is this really what it means to be a Beta Male?  You accept emotional manipulation, humiliation, constant insults and unreasonable constraints on your behavior?


Why? Why would Robert do this?  What on earth does he get out of it?


And yet, though I have surveyed this idyll on countless occasions over two decades, a tiny niggle of irritation compromises my good spirits. The niggle arises from the existence of a second way – a covert, clandestine, cross-country way – to access the house. And while I have walked this route many times, I have never driven it. Why? My wife won’t let me.


Robert seems to get that allowing his wife to tell him where he may and may not drive his own fucking car is a bit…unhealthy.


The children giggle nervously, awareness perhaps dawning that this is not a harmlessly eccentric jaunt, more an instalment in a confusing, long-running and not entirely healthy marital psychodrama.


Robert tells his son that girls are allowed to hit him, and that’s just the way it is.  Passing on the acceptance of abuse that crosses the line from emotional into physical.  How sad. When Sam gets in an altercation with his sister, Robert steps in to make certain Sam cannot and does not fight back.




Rachel picked up a broom and jabbed it into Sam’s stomach. He absorbed the blow, grabbed another broom, and advanced. Rachel screamed. I wrapped Sam up in a bear hug and disarmed him.

“How come she’s allowed to hit me with a broom and I can’t do anything back?” he said. “Just the way it is, son,” I said.


Understandably, Robert takes some psychotropic medications to deal with his life, for which his wife and daughter both mock him, calling his prescription “mad pills”.


First things first: I hand over the scrip for my next consignment of fluoxetine – or Prozac if you will, or mad pills, as my wife and daughter call them, deploying the sensitivity for which they are both renowned.


Robert’s wife makes no secret of the fact that she prefers to talk to her best friend than him.


When Nicola and I started going out, I noticed she was always ready, willing and able, first flush of romance notwithstanding, to tear herself from my arms for a lengthy phone call with her pal.


He did, however see the upside to his wife’s close bond with Karen.


I also worked out that if Nicola was busy nattering away to Karen, she wasn’t giving me any grief.


I wonder why he doesn’t see himself as deserving of a life devoid of grief, especially the kind that comes with marrying such a fucking bitch?


On a road trip that their children declined to participate in (gee, I wonder why?), Robert thinks back over the whole long, miserable marriage.


Still, never mind, Sam and Rachel’s absence gave me and Nicola the chance to resurrect old unresolved tensions and argue bitterly about the route. It was just like old times.


After 15 years, Robert has mostly acquiesced.


After 15 years, most have fallen silent. Either I’ve won (accompanying her to Ikea, say, or rather, not accompanying her to Ikea), or an uneasy truce is maintained (my smoking), or Nicola’s will has prevailed (everything else).


What a life.  It goes on and on, with Robert detailing his failures, his humiliation, his ineptness, his basic lack of functionality without his beloved whipmaster telling him what to do.




Part of me wonders if this is perhaps not just a British thing?  The self-deprecation and understatement really masking a certain cultural arrogance and snobbery.  But that feeling of humble-brag just isn’t there.


Robert is like a thrashed dog.




It’s unpleasant and evokes a strong sense of pity.  So why is he published so frequently in the Times?  And who are his main readers?  That is what I would love to know.  Is it women who delight in Robert’s obsequiousness, his shameless boot-licking, his avowed acknowledgement of his wife’s superiority?


Surely it can’t be men?  Talk about Stockholm Syndrome.


British tabloids are famous for digging up dirt on their celebrities. I wonder how many guys his wife fucks on the side?


It’s not like she respects him.  How could she?  What master respects a slave?


I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.

Harriet Tubman


Lots of love,



145 Responses to “This is what emotional abuse looks like”

  1. thehumanscorch August 11, 2013 at 16:41 #

    I can tell you what this is JB.

    It’s extreme self-hatred from having never been turned into a man.

    When boys are young and transitioning, our deepest desire is to just be a man. Just be a man. The problem is, as an adolescent boy, you’re really not quite sure what that is.
    It is the job of your father to be in your life, and transition you. To put the tools of manhood in your adolescent hands, and teach you how to use them until you are confident, and launch out into your own life, fully capable of sustaining it. And dad is still there for your adult mistakes; but at least you know you’re a man, because your father said so.

    When that doesn’t happen….you end up hating yourself, and letting a wife treat you this way is just an outward manifestation of your inner truth: that you’re not really a man, just a boy, and adult boys, this is what your loser ass deserves.

    It’s not that different from women that don’t feel pretty or desirable, and therefore do not feel that they qualify for the love or attention that they so desperately crave, and thus choose to live in abuse.

    It is the manifestation of self-hatred.


  2. judgybitch August 11, 2013 at 16:44 #

    I just can’t get over him teaching his son that women are allowed to hit him.

    And teaching his daughter that it’s okay to get in physical fights with men, because they won’t fight back.

    She’s going to learn the truth the hard way, I think.


  3. TMG August 11, 2013 at 16:59 #

    Feminism and chivalry has deliberately and systematically made it difficult and/or illegal for husbands to be the commander-in-chief of the family. The woman’s amoral hypergamous instincts will then kick in. Some women will just feel vaguely “dissatisfied” and lose their sexual attraction to the husband. Others will feel justified to be unfaithful- “I deserve a real man” Others will initiate scorched-earth divorce proceedings. Others, such as the above, will keep him around for the pleasure of abusing him.

    Men need to abandon marriage completely.


  4. thehumanscorch August 11, 2013 at 17:01 #

    They’re all going to learn the truth the hard way, because these kinds of situations are unsustainable.


  5. Aye. August 11, 2013 at 17:17 #

    If Robert likes to be controlled and belittled, then good for him, they should buy some paddles and establish a safe word and do their weird master/slave thing when their children aren’t looking. But it doesn’t sound as though he likes it.

    Worse, he is asking his son, who rightly questions the situation, to endure and expect similar treatment when he clearly doesn’t like it.

    I grew up among parents enacting their violence upon each other and occasionally me. But no one ever made pretend that it was normal, expected, and acceptable.

    Treating someone badly is not Ok.


  6. Richard Ford August 11, 2013 at 17:18 #

    I think most of his readers will be male unfortunately. There is a long tradition of upper middle class men being dominated by their wives in the UK. It was a traditionalist thing before it was a feminist thing and may be the motivation behind the gentleman’s club movement (a sort of Edwardian MGTOW) that has been largely closed off by feminism.

    I have noticed these men tend to become ill quite a lot and this may be emotional repression. Most readers will not think the articles anything strange.


  7. jeheald August 11, 2013 at 18:00 #

    My ex was emotionally abusive. I endured it for 25 years because I thought it would get better. Yes, I was deluded. It never ever got better. I have wasted half my life trying to please someone who will not be pleased. Had I taken the Red Pill a couple of decades earlier, my life would be very different. The relationship is over now, but the damage done to me and to my children is beyond calculation. I blame myself for not knowing that it was my job to hold her accountable. I blame her for being a bitch. I blame the universe for being a place where shit happens. I blame no one because blame is a useless game. But I learned — never again.


  8. Tom August 11, 2013 at 18:11 #

    You would love Iron John by robert Bly


  9. Ranwulf August 11, 2013 at 18:53 #

    JB, you might want to read “No More Mr. Nice Guy” from Robert Glover. It seems this man go through exactly the sort of repressive masculinity that being a nice guy entails.


  10. LostSailor August 11, 2013 at 22:19 #

    So why is he published so frequently in the Times? And who are his main readers?

    I suspect that most of the readers are women. Women who feel an inner glow of glee while reading this stuff. Either that, or clapping their hands and excitedly cackling wildly.

    I think I’d go with the latter.

    The real shame is the intense damage this man is inflicting on his children. Especially his son. The scene with the broom should have taught the boy that standing up for himself will stop the abuse probably without having to actually resort to poking back; just the threat of doing the same with the broom is enough. But then bullies, especially female bullies, are generally cowards at heart…


  11. Liz August 11, 2013 at 22:32 #

    I do teach my sons not to hit girls. I actually teach them not to hit anyone smaller or weaker than they are. Because people who pick on those who are smaller or weaker than they are are (insert expletive of choice). I tell them not to hit because it would demean THEM, not because I’m afraid for the rotten little victim.

    So if, for instance, a five year old brat came up to my 11 year old son and punched him…my son could restrain him, but not punch him back. On the other hand, if the boy was his size or larger I’d expect him to defend himself and deliver a sound smack-down. Of course the equation would change (hypothetically) if the “little person” were wielding an equalizing weapon, or he was outnumbered by several violent rotten little people, or something. Proportional response always applies.

    In the case of this father. He’s a contemptible little man. It’s his job as a parent to take charge and stop his daughter from hitting his son, not just tell him he has to take it and do nothing. He might take abuse from his wife, that’s his choice, but his kids deserve better.


  12. JaiDUDG3 August 11, 2013 at 23:19 #

    I’ve always been brouht up to believe you don’t hit girls, as a general rule. But I think I’d have some very specific words for his son.


  13. Marlo Rocci August 11, 2013 at 23:27 #

    reason not to get married number 16,032, Filed, saved.


  14. ARoss August 11, 2013 at 23:41 #

    This kind of messed up lifestyle is at the heart of many Pink Floyd songs Especially the song Time, It is however disheartening to see played out in real life.


  15. Dire Badger August 12, 2013 at 00:10 #

    Apparently you have never been bullied.
    The worst bullies, the ones that make kids commit suicide, are NOT the big bad stupid kids. those kids mostly just want to get along and make friends, they are just too… slow to understand the real ways to do so.

    The worst and most venemous bullies are the ‘eddie haskells’. The little guy or girl with a smart mouth and cleverly painful pranks that hides behind their apparent helplessness and uses the authorities, teachers, parents, as the ‘hammer’ and his or her own evil cleverness as the anvil.

    I was over 6 feet tall in the 6th grade, and due to strong involvement in the SCA as a kid, heavily muscled (That comes from wearing over 100 pounds of metal armor and 50 pounds of shield and sword)… I was also autistic, and had been taught by reliable sources never to strike people physically weaker than I am. As a result, I was relentlessly bullied from all through grade school and juinor high. The number of times I considered killing myself in order to stop the abuse could be numbered in the triple digits.

    It took a junior high school coach chewing me out for letting the brats pick on me to finally break that early conditioning, that ‘violence solves nothing’ bullshit that my idiot parents and feminist teachers crammed down my throat. The moment i broke another kid’s arm who was punching me into a display case was probably the best moment in my life, it was the moment the horror finally came to an end.

    So yes, teach your children not to be a bully, but if someone strikes you first? HIT THEM BACK. Hit them so hard that they will never, ever touch you again. It doesn’t matter if they are a boy or a girl or bigger or smaller or even in a wheelchair…. if they abuse you, you teach them never to ever do that again. Yes, you will get into trouble. Accept the punishment and move on, you will respect yourself, and you will not be tortured any more.

    Fathers used to understand this.


  16. Ron R. August 12, 2013 at 06:08 #

    Interesting, and a great post as usual JB.
    But what I see, being a male in his early 50’s is the emasculation of the male species over the last couple of generations.

    Just take a look at the average SitCom of the 90’s and 00’s, be it Friends, Everyone hates Raymond, King of Queen’s, etc, the one thing in common was men that were portrayed as dolt’s by stronger leading women. Now some of those shows I thought were quite funny, but it did nothing to portray a balanced marriage or relationship.

    The American male as it once was “Alpha” is on the path to extinction, it is no longer PC to be strong and have an opinion. In fact, after living in Europe for 20 of the past 25 years, I see that even open debate on an issue or problem is not allowed. We cannot communicate in a civil manner, it descends very quickly to a war of words, with someone having to win at all costs.

    For my part, I will not date an American woman, and this from a successful, well educated American male. I find them to challenging to deal with for the most part. Resentful of everything, quick with the put down, and most dress like slobs. How can you respect someone else when you do not even respect yourself to dress properly. Same goes for the average American male, they dress like salvation army rejects. When did it become OK to wear trainers in public when not going to the gym. (But this is a whole other topic). But what this all breads is a lack of respect for others, the but down becomes the norm, I see married men trailing behind the wife in the market looking like beaten down dogs.

    The divorce rate is so high here due to all of those factors, neither party keeps themselves in shape, neither party talks, I mean truly talks to each other. Neither party respects the other, if they did you would not see people leaving the house in sweats and flip flops to go shopping. Neither party can make decisions, right or wrong, without being attacked for it. We all make mistakes, it is normal, we should learn from them and move on and try not to repeat them.

    Being the Alpha male also does not mean being dominant to your spouse/significant other, it just means being self assured, in control of yourself and your life, you know, being a good strong male that can survive in this world and care for their spouse and family. It also means being secure enough to discuss things, to take a stand when needed, but also to know when you are wrong or if compromise is needed.

    So wake up all you males and be men, and American women, please respect your self and get off your high horses and treat men with respect, you just may get it back.

    As Eminem said “I am not afraid, to take a stand”

    Best Ron


  17. Liz August 12, 2013 at 09:40 #

    I was bullied in school.

    I don’t know which generation you come from, but at present if you break someone’s arm in middle school it is very likely you will go to juvenile hall. A far less nuanced environment where there are lots of bigger people who aren’t conditioned not to pick on little people.


  18. Spaniard August 12, 2013 at 12:55 #

    Most of the married guys I know, they are constantly verbally abused. They live in Hell. And they pay all the bills.
    But… it’s their own fault, because, as said, in Spain, men rather be in extremely bad company than to be in their own. For two reasosn: they cannot cope with loneliness and they fear of “you have no wife you are a non existent entity in society” syndrom. Which is very strong in this country.
    Some of them have realised (after years of hell) that is better to be in their own than in bad company (oh, my God, the Big Epiphany!!!) But it is too late. They know if they divorce, they will end up in the street and sleeping in charity rooms.


  19. Spaniard August 12, 2013 at 12:57 #

    To me, the peace of a monk in his monastery, is the most manly life.


  20. Liz August 12, 2013 at 13:51 #

    Tangential to the topic, one of my sons is going into the sixth grade this year, and he had a summer reading list (he’s expected to do a report). I was unfamiliar with any of the books on the list, but picked the only book (out of ten) that looked like it was written from a boy’s perspective and about subject matter a boy might like (the others were all female first person narratives, or similar).

    The description said it was about a teen who was bullied, and found his grandfather (soldier in the Vietnam war, MIA) in his dreams. The title was “Everybody Sees the Ants”. I unfortunately expected a mandatory school book list to offer only appropriate material for the age group represented, especially for sixth grade. I was wrong. The book was incredibly inappropriate for an eleven year old (content, language, subject matter). It transitioned into a feminist diatribe, one of the main characters a female model who chopped off all of her hair to reject beauty and the establishment. Men were all either cads, bullies, or pusillanimous passive-aggressives. The teenaged male main character found his inspiration to “take charge of his life” by watching the Vagina Monologues (I can’t make this up). My son told me the book was “weird” so I read it. I am seeing red right now.

    I wander to the balcony to people watch. Some stop at the clothesline Jane put up this morning a collection of pieces of clothing with messages written on them by past and present participants in the show. After ten minutes I wander down and read them, to. A shirt says WOMAN POWER! Another, “Behind every great man is a great woman who pushed him out of her vagina. A child’s bathing suit says, in Sharpie marker, “I wanted to bee an olympic swimmer. Instead, I became a drug addict. Along the crotch of the suit, it says “He still coaches. Maybe your daughter”. My stomach twists.
    I concentrate on the more uplifting lingerie. There are three pieces. One says “Will you please me?” Another “I dn’t need a reason to wear this” and the last, as wide as it is long, so it would fit AUnt Jodi, says, “I am perfect”.

    The crowd grows. I feel a little weird being a male right now, so I tiptoe back up the stairs to the balcony. (blah blah blah) They chant funny vagina chants, and they talk the harsh vagina realities, and I am sitting on the top step, knees to my face, occasionally wiping my tears on the stretched sleeve of my POW/MIA T-shirt. It’s a little like the Grand Canyon- I don’t think I could come up with words to describe it if I had to. When it’s over, I stand and applaud until my hands are sore.”

    Words fail me.


  21. Goober August 12, 2013 at 14:50 #

    What, uselessness and navel gazing? That doesn’t exactly sound that manly to me.


  22. Aye. August 12, 2013 at 15:08 #

    Side note: after reading this yesterday, I had an experience where my boyfriend of 6 months actually expressed delight (and puzzlement) that I don’t yell at him for mismanaging his free time. His source of woe: all he did with a day off was clean his house and study. Yeah, serious time mismanagement.

    I guess the last girl(s) thought browbeating a very high achiever would be beneficial?


  23. TMG August 12, 2013 at 15:10 #

    What, pray tell, entitles you to determine manhood?


  24. freetofish August 12, 2013 at 15:22 #

    It’s too bad the articles are behind a paywall. I would have liked to read the story from his point.

    Sadly the narrative is all to common now. Dalrock has a good post on this dynamic in modern marriage.

    People here have asked why he puts up with it. Threat of divorce, losing custody of his kids (his son mostly from the sounds of it), his house, and having to pay that harpy for that privilege of further getting abused by family court,


  25. freetofish August 12, 2013 at 15:26 #

    This has been my personal experience, but I would bet his previous girlfriend expected that when he had a block of free time such as that, he should have spent it with her or doing things for her before taking care of his personal needs.

    I dated this one woman who could never except that I set aside saturday or sunday mornings for doing my routine household chores. Vacuuming, sheets, bathrooms etc. She would get absolutely bent out of shape every weekend when I wasn’t at her beck and call.

    Needless to say that relationship didn’t last very long.


  26. freetofish August 12, 2013 at 15:26 #



  27. Liz August 12, 2013 at 15:45 #

    The most manly life is a genetic dead end?


  28. LostSailor August 12, 2013 at 15:46 #

    I was overweight and a little socially inept in grade school and was routinely physically bullied. It wasn’t until I learned the same lesson, DB, that it stopped. Fighting back was the only way to make it stop. Yeah, my parents were called, I was suspended for a couple of days, but not only did the bullying stop, I had newfound respect for myself and found I got a lot more respect from my classmates, so it was also the beginning of the end of my social ineptness.

    That said, bullying has moved on a bit from physical intimidation, which makes fighting back against psychological and social bullying a bit harder…


  29. LostSailor August 12, 2013 at 16:12 #

    The education establishment certainly has it in for the boys. Another example that the end-game of feminism is to turn boys into girls and men into women…


  30. Aye. August 12, 2013 at 16:28 #

    Think about the reverse… if a man verbally harassed his girlfriend about her choice to spend a Sunday morning tending to her apartment and studies… That holds an easily identifiable “ick” factor.


  31. TMG August 12, 2013 at 17:11 #

    By who’s authority do you declare that having children is the determiner of manhood?


  32. Goober August 12, 2013 at 17:26 #

    Did I say that I determined the definition of manhood? Spaniard posted his opinion of what he thought manhood is. I posted mine, stating that I disagreed with his. It’s called an opinion – you may want to review the definition of the term.

    I wasn’t submitting my opinion to Oxford to have it bronzed and made natural law. I’m not exactly sure how you questioned me posting my opinion, but not Spaniard. Care to elaborate?


  33. Goober August 12, 2013 at 17:28 #

    Struggling with that whole “opinion” thing, I see…

    Okay, I’ll bite –

    Men need to abandon marriage completely.

    By what authority do you draw the perceived ability to determine what all men should do?

    (Note, just in case you missed it, the question is rhetorical, and intended only to make a point.)


  34. Goober August 12, 2013 at 17:29 #

    When reviewing this, I, too, flipped the genders and came up with the same conclusion that I come up with whenever I hear about a woman who willingly stays in an abusive relationship:

    He’s a big boy. He is a free, sentient, independent being with full agency over his choices, wants, and desires. He chooses to stay with her despite her being an absolutely awful person, and given the above, what business is it of ours that he does?

    I say this about this man, and feminism shrugs and agrees. I say this about a woman who is abused and continues to stay with her abuser, and they flip their lids. What I said is truth, no matter the gender. People make their own choices.

    I never have figured out why people think that sharing their own dull intimate details is somehow interesting to others. Oh, never mind, I got it – he’s in France. How sophisticated and elite! Even psychological abuse gains an air of sophisticated mystery when it happens in France, amiright? /eyesrolling… (I only say this because of how many times he made it a point to mention that this all happened in France. Humble brag, indeed…)


  35. Goober August 12, 2013 at 17:29 #

    For those who state that he would lose everything in a divorce, I wonder how this necessarily needs to end in divorce. First off, HE is just as responsible for the situation at hand as she is. Folks on here would be quick to blame an abused woman, at least partially, for her abuse, and as stated before, I would absolutely agree with that. Nearly any abusive situation is a two-way street. If this guy chose not to put up with her shit anymore, if he started to stand up for himself and tell her to go fuck off, she might just change her attitude. In fact, that may be exactly why she’s being such a bitch – she’s subconsciously searching for that trigger to get him to pull his head out of his ass and be the captain that she craves (even if she’d never admit it). Things might just be better if he put her in her place, because that may be exactly what she wants. Maybe she’s tired of being married to a whimpering man-child and just wants him to grow the fuck up?

    He’s obviously trying – otherwise, why drive down that dirt road and get stuck? That was an act of rebellion, like a teenage boy doing something his father told him not to, just because he can, and just because he was told not to. He just needs to finish it off by doing what a man would, instead of taking the teenage boy route: telling her that it’s his goddamned car, his goddamned property, and he’ll damn well drive on it if he damn well wants to. Yeah, she’ll be pissed at first, but I think she’ll end up changing her attitude with him within a few instances of this happening.

    My wife would never dream of telling me that I can’t drive my truck on some road somewhere. It wouldn’t even occur to her that she had the option of telling me that. Is that because she is an exceptional woman? Or is it because she knows that I wouldn’t put up with that shit for a nanosecond?

    I’d like to think that it is both.


  36. Goober August 12, 2013 at 17:42 #

    See, the trick to this is something that seems to elude so many men. When she starts to browbeat you over how you spend your free time, ask her what business is it of hers. Ask her why she thinks she gets to control you. Ask her what she would rather you did if she were your master and then explain why that doesn’t work with your wants, needs, and desires. Ask her how long you could put off cleaning your house to please her, before she started browbeating you for being a slob. Make her realize that there are two people in this relationship, not one.

    In short, calmly, cooly, and with your temper in check, tell her to FUCK. OFF.

    Suggest that if she wanted to spend time with you, a more productive way to accomplish that is to ask nicely. Suggest that she’s not being a nice person.

    99.9% of the time, she’ll be pissed, but not for the reasons that you think – she’ll be pissed because you proved her wrong, not because she’ll actually think she has that right. If she continues to think she has that right, then leave her. If she’s pissed because you proved her wrong, she’s human, she’ll get over it, and if it doesn’t stop after a few go-rounds, leave her. But the trick is being smart enough to stop this shit before it becomes a surprise to you that someone of the opposite sex would actually treat you like a human, and with human dignity.

    The thing is, this is not a deal-breaker for women. Most of them will realize that they aren’t dating a push-over and will stop trying to push you over. In fact, this is seen as a bonus for most women, and it will draw them closer to you – confidence is close to the number one listed attraction factor for women to men, and that includes the confidence to not put up with her shit. For those women that don’t see it as a bonus or a good thing – LEAVE THEM. It isn’t that hard. Lots of guys would put a ring on a chick like this and then complain when everything goes to shit – it was shit from the beginning, pal, you just took a while to realize it.


  37. Goober August 12, 2013 at 17:43 #

    Holy crap, that’s awful, Liz…


  38. Goober August 12, 2013 at 17:49 #

    It is their fault, Spaniard. Lots of folks on here would blame the women, JB included, but how can you have respect for someone that is not respectable? This guy could turn his situation around in an instant if he’d just stand up for himself – she treats him like this because she doesn’t respect him. That’s as much his fault as it is hers.

    I’m not saying she is blameless, but damnit, we’d all be forcing an abused woman to share blame for a situation that she chose to be in, so why should this guy get a free pass?


  39. Liz August 12, 2013 at 17:52 #

    If I had declared that having children is the determiner of manhood I would have done so by the authority granted in the first amendment of the Constitution. Free speech, and all that.

    But I didn’t. I do, however think it’s absurd in the extreme to claim exactly the opposite, as asserted here…that LACK of children is a determiner of manhood, or manliness, or has anything whatsoever to do with leading a ‘manly life’.


  40. Liz August 12, 2013 at 17:55 #

    Yes. We’re going to have some words with the administrative staff when school starts next week. I want to know who picked that list of books and thought this one in particular was appropriate.


  41. Dire Badger August 12, 2013 at 17:58 #

    yes, and if someone is relentlessly physically nullying you for years, defending yourself gets you sent to Juvenile hall.
    Am I the only one who notices that there is something wrong with this picture?


  42. Dire Badger August 12, 2013 at 17:59 #

    Is the radical notion
    That women are the
    only people that matter


  43. Liz August 12, 2013 at 18:14 #

    And there’s no middle ground for the far larger person to choose between doing nothing and breaking the smaller person’s arm?


  44. TMG August 12, 2013 at 18:17 #

    I can offer my informed opinion on whether men should get married or not. You are not an arbiter of manhood. P.S. I’m not an arbiter of womanhood, either.


  45. Dire Badger August 12, 2013 at 18:22 #

    I am just sick of the whole ‘violence never solves anything’ dialogue.
    It is patently false on it’s face.

    Violence is not always the BEST solution, but it IS a solution. A dead enemy is not an enemy any more. problem solved.

    I know that when i was a kid, if i didn’t get my ass kicked by my dad, I would be a monster right now.

    Evolution has equipped humans with one of the most exquisite nervous system learning responses ever devised. It is called pain. Nothing cuts straight to a negative response, and causes education to take place faster than pain. getting your knuckles rapped for trying to use a VCR as a grilled cheese sandwich maker teaches you INSTANTLY and effectively that that is the wrong thing to do far better than a million time-outs.

    But for some reason, parents today truly believe the whole ‘time out’ crap. I can tell you from personal experience that there is no more conflicted response than being punished by a time out. You may be contrite for a few moments, but the humiliation and ostracism almost instantly turn to resignation at being an outcast, resentment, and a ‘who do they think they are, this is kidnapping!’ mentality.

    In ancient times, getting ‘shunned’ was the worst punishment ever created… it taught nothing, when you were evicted or shunned from your tribe you were essentially ‘dead’, and thus shunning is the worst possible abuse you could inflict on a young, impressionable mind. It teaches them nothing except that they are ‘out’. Prison works much the same way… eventually shunning gets you shunned in return. Prison creates criminals, ‘time outs’ create a child that simply withdraws from the emotional abuse, not one who has learned a lesson.

    The evidence is all around you… children who were never taught simple basics by a swift application of a hand to the bottom, and were shunned instead, have problems socializing or succeeding. Children that pick on a bigger child because they know that they will never be punished for it, or for anything, for that matter. People who have no understanding that ‘bad things can happen’ if they do something stupid, that are stunned into shocked screeching when something DOES go wrong. People that never learn to accept failure with dignity, that never learn from their own mistakes… the only thing they learn is that ‘being wrong equals death’

    Pretty sick, and I am ashamed that such attitudes towards child rearing have taken relentless hold even among the most red-pill of people.


  46. Dire Badger August 12, 2013 at 18:29 #

    When you are a fourteen year old trying to defend yourself for the first time, ‘middle ground’ is kind of a null concept. You do what you have to do. Obviously, a fourteen year old that is NOT violent by nature is not going to set out specifically to break someone’s arm, but when defending yourself after years of physical abuse, unintended consequences can happen.

    If I had been willing to defend myself right from the beginning, The other kid’s arm was unlikely to have gotten broken, because I would likely have known better than to close my eyes while i pushed him away, and he wouldn’t have gone down the stairs…or the situation would never have gotten as far as it did in the first place.

    An understanding of bully psychology helps. Teachers say “Ignore them, the lack of response will make them go away”. That is exactly the opposite of what really happens… bullies keep pushing the boundaries UNTIL they get a response.

    In this case, ‘pushing the boundaries’ meant slamming my face between a book bag and a glass trophy case. No amount of parental supervision can stop ALL bullying, it was a learning experience for both me and the bully.

    In other words, shit happens.


  47. Dire Badger August 12, 2013 at 18:33 #

    Being a man.


  48. Goober August 12, 2013 at 18:40 #

    That too


  49. Goober August 12, 2013 at 18:44 #

    You obviously aren’t getting it.

    Either that or you think you’re the only one who gets to have an opinion.


  50. Goober August 12, 2013 at 18:48 #

    Agreed. But I would also add that most women aren’t feminists in that extreme way. They’ll pay lip service to it but if they are worthwhile they’ll see through the bullshit just like jb does. If they’re not, then they aren’t worth it.


  51. Itchy August 12, 2013 at 19:10 #

    You`ll love this:


  52. freetofish August 12, 2013 at 19:34 #

    You’re right it does. But it seems in society now, it is quite normal for a woman to feel it’s her due to expect her boyfriend/husband to put her first in everything and if you don’t you are a bad partner.

    It of course, does not work in reverse. Any man who expects that is Creepy and controlling……


  53. freetofish August 12, 2013 at 19:43 #

    its all part of taking that red pill. Men and boys are raised and fed on the feminist mantra of it’s their job to make her happy. Their own wants and needs are secondary. For all of the feminist “independant woman” BS they spout, they all still reinforce the “princess” mentality.

    It’s why so many people, men and women, are so unhappy in their relationships. The men have never learned how to be captains and the women don’t realize they want one.

    It’s all about realizing your worth as a man and a human. Until a man can do that, he will forever be incapable of escaping a women like described in the story,.


  54. Aye. August 12, 2013 at 20:42 #

    I am a big fan of treating others as I would like to be treated.

    And I don’t see much point in calling something love if all intentions, words and actions aren’t rooted in kindness. Both parties.


  55. Big D August 12, 2013 at 21:36 #

    Any sympathy I had for the guy disappeared as soon as I read this:

    ““How come she’s allowed to hit me with a broom and I can’t do anything back?” he said. “Just the way it is, son,” I said.”

    Bollocks to that.

    It is a parents job to set the limits of acceptable behaviour and one of them should be that smacking people with brooms is not acceptable.
    His daughter is going to hit adulthood lashing out at any person that disagrees with her and if she’s lucky, she’ll learn to control it before she hits the wrong person and ends up sitting in the road with a busted lip.
    Meanwhile his son is being brought up to be afraid of standing up for himself.
    Anybody else see where that’s likely to end up?

    While I’m here,it depresses me that there’s almost certainly people reading this poor sod’s column and thinking “You go, girl. Teach that man who’s boss”


  56. Aye. August 12, 2013 at 22:02 #

    Yeah… I don’t think I deserve to be thanked simply for not turning into a rage monster. That should be inherent.


  57. Aye. August 12, 2013 at 22:47 #

    Maybe you guys might have suggestions about how I, as the woman, should prevent those sorts of accolades from happening again? I mean, short of being a nagging, screaming nightmare that proves the opposite? 😉


  58. freetofish August 12, 2013 at 23:42 #

    Honestly I would send him to some select man-o-sphere sites. Dalrock is a good one and Married Man Sex life is another. Athol has a good section of blog articles on the Captain/First officer relationship dynamic.


  59. freetofish August 12, 2013 at 23:48 #

    I have two older sisters and was raised the exact same way. No matter what, you never hit a girl. Ever.

    I remember in elementary school, say around grade 4-5 where the girls used to run around the playground kicking boys in the balls because it was funny to them. Even after many of us complained to the teacher, who was female of course, nothing was ever done or said to the girls. After one incident a classmate hauled off and punched this one girl in the face after she kicked him in the balls for the 4th time that week.

    He, of course, was suspended for 2 months, eventually failed grade 4 and was held back a year,

    This was back in the early ’80s.


  60. goober August 13, 2013 at 01:31 #

    Better rule:

    Don’t hit at all unless it is a last resort option. ie self defense. Then hit hard, hit decisively, and hit with as much ill intent as you can muster.


  61. Eric August 13, 2013 at 02:05 #


    Your comment reminds me of an April post over at Life of Liz. She asked for red-pill book and movie suggestions for her younger kids:

    I’m surprised that with the number of prominent red-pill bloggers who are moms and dad, and their kids growing up fast, there isn’t yet (to my knowledge) a more organized movement to compile age-grouped red-pill cultural educational resources.

    My book suggestions to Liz were Card’s Ender’s Game, Heinlein’s Starship Troopers (very different from the movie), and the Chinese children’s classic, The Monkey King.

    For an 11-year-old boy who’s about a year (maybe less) away from noticing girls in that total life-changing way for the 1st time, here’s a red-pill movie suggestion: 2012’s ‘Moonrise Kingdom’. I suggested it to JB in a previous thread. I withheld further commentary at the time so as not to unduly influence her 1st impression. But here’s an excerpt from my reaction to Moonrise Kingdom (fyi, Sam and Suzy are both 12):

    “Note the masculine fundamentals of Sam’s practical competence, irrational self-confidence (which compensates for his spots of ignorance and inexperience), and leadership with Suzy, and the cusp-of-adolescent couple’s basic physical attraction. New Penzance Island is Suzy’s home and she can keep up with the intrepid Khaki Scout, but she doesn’t compete with Sam in his assumed expertise nor challenge him on his audacious plan. Whereas she is cold or hostile with everyone else, Suzy is open and feminine with Sam. She follows his lead and trusts him with her fears, loves, and her life. It doesn’t matter to her that he may wet the bed and is sometimes insensitive. Suzy wants Sam, too, and that makes all the difference. Sam pierced Suzy’s ear, it hurt and bled, and then she asked him to pierce her other ear. Gee. Suzy heart-broken, plaintively to her mom, “We’re in love. We just want to be together. What’s wrong with that?” She’s his girl.”


  62. goober August 13, 2013 at 03:24 #

    Just keep being you, and keep being awesome. When a guy gives you accolades for being human, point it out to him and ask why he thought you deserved praise for being a reasonable human being. If nothing else, it will start an interesting conversation.


  63. Dire Badger August 13, 2013 at 09:06 #

    I hate to point it out, but I am pushing 40…in my lifetime I have seen women change from ‘occasional radical’ to ‘no women are worth it.’

    When basic humanity is so rare That I need to look deep into the blogsphere to find a single female that is ‘worth it’, I find it hard to hear a statement like “most women aren’t feminists in that extreme way. ” that I wouldn’t take with an entire spoon full of salt.

    Goober, most women now ARE feminists in that ‘extreme way’. This propaganda has been so deeply ingrained culturally that it takes an exceptionally intelligent, and moreover WISE woman to notice the hypocrisy in the public dialogue at ALL. An even rarer level of perception to refuse to yield to it, and even those tend to have massive gaps in their uncommon sense where rainbow-farting unicorns park their hairy asses.

    In other words, I refuse to yield to your ‘nawalt’. The exceptions are exceptions, not the rule.


  64. Dire Badger August 13, 2013 at 09:14 #

    I hate the term ‘stockholm syndrome’

    it is not a syndrome. It is an evolutionary response designed to facilitate female survival and reproduction. What is erroneously referred to as ‘Stockholm syndrome’ allows women to adapt to the enormously genetically-effective practice of ‘women join a new tribe’. It allows women to survive and thrive and reproduce in an environment where they are complete strangers, including the incredibly common situation of ‘all the men in my tribe got killed and I got kidnapped into a new tribe’. After all, that happened constantly in the past, why shouldn’t women be happy with their new, apparently stronger men?

    “Stockholm syndrome” doesn’t happen to men, although something similar can occur with young boys. It is an extremely effective evolutionary survival mechanism. This lack of adaptability is one of the REASONS men were put to death when a tribe was conquered, and is also one of the reasons for the lack of empathy where men’s suffering is concerned.


  65. Brian August 13, 2013 at 10:00 #

    That is the worst thing I’ve ever heard in the context of modern education. It’s child abuse, nothing less.


  66. Master Beta August 13, 2013 at 11:26 #

    Google humiliatrix. Or go to a porn search engine and just put in humiliation.

    What this man has is a not so uncommon fetish.

    And yes, this is an extreme form of what is known in PUA communities as a Beta Male:
    Alpha = runs his own life the way he chooses.
    Beta = his life is run by one woman in particular and all women in general.

    I guess this guy and “Betas” in general just have a need to appease women.


  67. Liz August 13, 2013 at 11:36 #

    @DB: “This lack of adaptability is one of the REASONS men were put to death when a tribe was conquered, and is also one of the reasons for the lack of empathy where men’s suffering is concerned.”

    The Roman army would have been a LOT smaller if the above were true. Men have adapted quite successfully when tribes/cities/nations have been conquered throughout history (and in modern day times for that matter).


  68. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 12:01 #

    It is completely their fault, Goober. If you would have seen what I have seen…
    I have seen beaten dogs hubbys -living in hell and paying the bills of the heating- who still with a petulant sense of superiority to single guys their age, just because, they have a wife (!!!!!!!!!!)
    Maybe, if the wife is a total unbearable witch/bitch but she is hot… OK, maybe… but this wives I tell you are ugly as fuck!!!!!!


  69. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 12:07 #

    Who is behind the bullies?
    Have you noticed that in 100% male environments such only male schools, army,etc, there is no bullying?
    The girls ate behind the bullies. They point the right boy to be bullied..
    Maybe, knowing this, we can undestand who is actualy, behind the wars. The wars usually are for resourses or “lebensraum”. Who need the resourses? and the lebensraum because they do not stop giving birth?


  70. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 12:20 #

    An Spanish 30s politician/philosopher said that the truly Spanish man, the Eternal Spanish man, is “half monk, half warrior”. It is something that comes from the Middle Ages.
    I just have enough with the “half monk” side. I am not into fighting wars for women. Not even having a fight against the cocky guy that, asking for trouble, he starts flirting with your girfriend in front of you. And she flirst too. If you get angry, the girfriend is going to tell you are “insecure”. And if you act cool, and do not pay attentin, she is going to tell you that you have “no blood in your vains” and you are incapable of “protect her” from other men around.


  71. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 12:25 #

    As said, if the dominatrix is very hot and gives you lots of pervy sex… that is Ok. I knew the perfect British domina a few years ago. But, can you imagine being dominated and pussywhiped by ugly, fat, middle age women? I see it every day in Spain.
    Are you British?


  72. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 12:35 #

    Men are ambitious. They have something, and they want MORE. But they love waht they have already.They cherish it. They just want more. That is the Nietzsche’s Will to Power. men rarely leave their wives for the mistress or the hookers.
    But women cannot never get satisfaction. Never can be pleased. They have something, and then they see another thing, and they need to throw away what they already have and go gor the other thing.
    Fashion victims.
    What I do not understand is why if they crave so much to get married and have children, then they destroy the family.


  73. Liz August 13, 2013 at 12:37 #

    Why would accolades bother you? I guess if you’re together long enough you might hope he’ll start taking you for granted….


  74. Dire Badger August 13, 2013 at 12:47 #

    I beg to differ. There is a lot of bullying in fully male environments and jockying for position.

    I lay a lot of society’s ills directly at Feminism’s feet, but Bullying? Oh no, I will take full credit and responsibility on men for male-to-male physical and emotional abuse.

    on the other hand, most of the reasons we DO it have nothing to do with abuse and everything to do with training, establishing heirarchy, and ‘toughening each other up’. If you are in a military, you soon realize that such toughening up and aggressive play are a vital part of readiness, team-building and training. Even if someone occasionally gets caught in the crossfire.

    You really cannot understand the amount of disgust the military man (I mean the real military, not today’s joke) towards men that cannot ‘hack it.’. You are counting on that man to cover your ass, kill the guy that’s trying to kill you, or pull you to safety if you get shot, and you would willingly do the same for him…. If he cannot ‘deal’, you will do whatever you have to to either get him up to ‘spec’ or get him the heck out. Your life could depend on it.


  75. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 12:48 #

    Freetofish, the problem is that the princess does not want to be treated as such. She actualy wants to be treated like trash. But she says that she wants to be tretated likeprincess. But if you treate her like trash (what she really wants) she is going to be pissed off and bleme on you, yhen you correct yourself and you tretae her right and like a queen, and she gets sick of you becuse you are too nice and bland and you do not really know waht women want in the deep, you do not know how to read female desires and………… HOLY SHIT!!!!!


  76. Liz August 13, 2013 at 12:52 #

    Thanks for the link, and reading suggestions, Eric. Those books (and movie) sound good.

    I’m very concerned about the material that’s required at public schools…I’ve never home schooled, we’ve always tried to live in places with good schools. That’s our number one priority. When they’ve been unavailable we’ve taken the kids to private schools. But overall I’m pretty relaxed, but this was beyond the pale…a shock in the extreme. The agenda is as blatant as a dildo painted red. Out of all the great works of literature out there, THIS is what was chosen? Holy hell.


  77. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 12:56 #

    MGTOW is alpha.
    PUA is beta.


  78. Dire Badger August 13, 2013 at 12:57 #

    Excuse me, we are talking different scales here. when you are talking about what is essentially a ‘political scale’, the actual difference between fighting for City A of the Cretans or city B of the Romans is essentially insignificant. You still live in the same place, still have the same community, The only difference is who you pay taxes to. That does not engage any evolutionary response whatsoever.

    What I am talking about is adapting to a new tribe on an individual basis. a tribe being ‘conquered’ usually refers to an entire community, and when a large community is conquered, virtually nothing changes immediately for the inhabitants.

    ‘stockholm syndrome’ also applies to the same small, personal scale. If China conquered the united states, very little would actually change in the short run. Maybe movement restrictions, new taxes, etc. but no ‘syndrome’ of attachment to the conquerers would occur. On the other hand, if they made it ‘personal’ by rounding up all the cute girls and handing them to various officers as rewards, I am willing to bet that within a few years more than one of the girls would be ready to turn over any resistance that threatened to harm ‘her’ officer.

    That’s why Mata Hari was such a successful agent. conquerors are well aware of evolutionary attachment, and expect it to occur. a woman that is more-or-less trained out of the effect, and is able to simulate that sort of attachment without actually feeling it, is capable of ENORMOUS damage.


  79. Dire Badger August 13, 2013 at 13:00 #

    MGTOW is failure. surrender without a fight. MGTOW admits feminism is right and proper and goes and retreats under a rock.
    MGTOW is the lion that just lost the fight for the pride, wanders off to a bachelor pack. never breeds. loses at evolution.

    PUA is beta that is darned good at simulating alpha.


  80. Dire Badger August 13, 2013 at 13:03 #

    MGTOW is failure. MGTOW is surrendering without a fight. MGTOW is running away. MGTOW is tacitly admitting feminism is right, by refusing to oppose it. MGTOW is Omega. the loser in the lion’s fight for the pride.

    PUA is beta learning how to be alpha. PUA is trying to figure out by experience the lessons your father should have taught you by example. PUA is not the answer, but it’s a damned good way of learning the right question.


  81. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 13:04 #

    What I know about the scene in Russia is that:
    a) Russian men allow foreigner men to hunt in their countryside. At least, if you hunt on your own. I think they are not so happy about the crowds of Italians who go there to meet women.
    But if you are on your own and you behave, it is OK. No problem. I am thankful to Russian men for that.
    b) There are TONS women. Extremely beautiful.
    c) Russian men tond to seem quite passive. They do not approach. They do not need to.
    d) All the game is very marriage orientated. Not so much slut culture in Russia.


  82. Dire Badger August 13, 2013 at 13:07 #

    That can also be applied on a societal level. small, personal communities cater to human’s needs on an individual basis. Large, monolithic organizations are utterly impersonal, care nothing for the individual, and are anathema to basic human happiness.

    I am not an anarchist, never have been, but i oppose on principle any ‘government’ that is too large for the lowliest individual to invite the highest-ranking individual to sunday dinner to talk, and have the invitation accepted as a matter of course.


  83. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 13:08 #

    MGTOW is a paradox: is Omega who becomes Alpha.
    MGTOW have give up with regular women but not with whores.
    If you are an MGTOW with money you can have more quality pussy than most alphas. Avoiding stress and problems. And saving money.


  84. Dire Badger August 13, 2013 at 13:13 #

    what exactly the fuck is ‘alpha’ about giving up and creeping away with your tail between your legs?

    Sure, you can ‘do what you want to’, but when the only thing you can ‘do’ is live for nothing more than nihilistic self-pleasuring, what’s the point of your existence?

    MGTOW is an evolutionary null. You are essentially worthless to your entire species. nothing of you will live beyond you.You are doing exactly what the feminists do, which is to subsume all value, progress, and human potential into pointless selfishness.


  85. Liz August 13, 2013 at 13:17 #

    Don’t know if that follows, Spaniard. There’s a lot of hazing in frats and I seem to remember a story about a presidential hopeful in an all-male school who held a kid down and cut his hair. And there was FAR more hazing in the military back in the day before women played a large role.

    If anything it’s the opposite. Schools were filled with physical confrontations until the fairly recent no tolerance policies…the son of a friend of mine recently spoke with the police because her son was hit in the leg with a chair by a student. It did no damage but the police wanted her to know she could press charges against the 12 year old who hit her 12 year old. If anything, it’s gone 180 out the other way. I prefer boys fight it out to calling the authorities as a first and only measure for dealing with adversity. Back when my husband was a child he was in fights all the time, usually they picked up their football afterward and played. Not so now…And it doesn’t matter who started it. No Tolerance!


  86. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 14:07 #

    MGTOW is a genetic dead end. That is true.
    So what?

    What is the difference beetween feminism and MGTOW?
    In fact, the original feminism was kind of WomanGoingTheirOwnWay. Right?

    -Feminists earn their own money. MGTOWs so.
    -For sex they go to bars and clubs. MGTOWs go to bothels.
    -For love… they love themselves. MGTOWs get love from a dog.
    -For company… cats. MGTOWs have a dog.
    -For breeding then they can go to sperm bank or fuck a handsome randome guy who never is going to know. MGTOWs do not care about breeding.

    But feminists (like all women) they need men.
    Not because the money.
    Not because the sex.
    Not because the sperm.
    Not because love or company.

    Just because they need a man to destroy. Women are like the female mantis insect. It is part of their program. If they do not do it, they feel frustrated. that is why MGTOW is so irritating to them.


  87. Master Beta August 13, 2013 at 14:17 #


    Both MGTOW and PUA can be alpha
    Both MGTOW and PUA can be beta

    Howard Wolowitz from big bang theory is a beta PUA douche. Joey from friends is an alpha PUA.

    Some fat virgin slob who lives in his mum’s basement is a beta MGTOW. Rambo is an alpha MGTOW – especially in Rambo III.

    It all depends on why you’ve chosen that path: To please women? or to please yourself? There’s nothing beta about enjoying women’s company and honing your skills to acquire their company. There’s nothing beta about not enjoying women’s company, and thus not investing any effort into acquiring their company.


  88. Dire Badger August 13, 2013 at 14:23 #

    That’s why MGTOW’s are Omega, not beta. Outside of the hierarchy or structure of society.


  89. Liz August 13, 2013 at 14:26 #

    And what is it about the monk that makes him manly, in particular? As opposed to non-monks? The same thing that makes nuns the most womanly of women?


  90. Liz August 13, 2013 at 14:35 #



  91. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 14:36 #

    But that is great. OUTSIDE. Not in the lower side. Just outside.
    MGTOW is new Greek Kyon philosophers.


  92. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 14:46 #

    Imagine you are a creepy ugly fat slob with small penis who lives in her moms basement. Imagine you have a good job, anyway. You can be a creep and a fat slob and ugly as fuck and be smart and having a good job at the same time..
    Imagine that you prefer to live in moms basement , then, so, you save money.
    Imagine you shag with 200$ hookers once a week. And you keep on enjoying your Crumb and Necron comics and your peaceful walks in the park,

    I thing such a guy is happy stud.


  93. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 14:58 #

    That is why I admire so much military hierarchy and camarade.
    It is men among men, Things that matter are really serious like all the things you have enumerate. It is a real hierarchy and completely out of that stupid female hierarchy about “who is cool?, who is creep? who has muscles? who has not? who is pathetic? who is winner? who is loser? who is handsome? who is ugly?”… That is all female shit infecting male environment. It is in the high school, it is the working places, it is all the fucking place around! Now we have it in the army too!!! Too much!!!


  94. Liz August 13, 2013 at 15:00 #

    I don’t know. Some people really do deserve to get their @ss beat. Proportional response applies, based on the reasonable person test (what a reasonable person would do placed in a similar situation). You’re not going to use the same level of force against a three pound dog as you would a 130 pound angry bullmastiff either.


  95. Eric August 13, 2013 at 15:01 #

    You’re welcome.

    I dimly recall names like London, Steinbeck, and Bronte from 6th grade, which (especially Steinbeck) well may have contained social agenda, but at least it was a subtle indoctrination effort disguised as Western canon. (Who decides what’s canonical, anyway?) I guess that confirms I’m old.

    Forewarned is forearmed.

    Your son is entering a pivotal stage, and the educators assimilating him into the Matrix know it.

    I repeat my suggestion that red-pill moms and dads ought to be organizing age-grouped red-pill parenting and cultural educational resources, if that effort is not underway already.

    Once upon a time, parents could send their impressionable sons off to the Boy Scouts, but from what I hear, the organization has been compromised. The 21st century solution is decentralized, networked, granular, and self-organizing, separate from the Matrix. You can still teach your son to be a Boy Scout, but you and his dad may have to teach him yourselves or organize with other red-pill parents.

    Your kids are growing up fast one way or the other. The clock is ticking and, as your cautionary tale shows, the race is already on, and the competition has an overwhelming advantage and a head start.

    My other suggestion is that it’s time for his dad to take over your son’s upbringing, old school paternal style, in order to set a positive masculine foundation for life. Masculine, mentally and physically challenging, time-consuming, hands-on, physical, and skills activities – the Boy Scouts skillset, camping, hunting, fishing, cooking, building/making things, fixing things – should be the classroom your husband used to teach your son. During their time together, your son and his dad should be engaging in frank father-son discussions – away from mom – about all the subject areas of a man’s life, including the interrogation of themes from both his red-pill books and movies and Matrix indoctrination sources. Mom should be kept in the loop and fully supporting the project with her skills and smarts, of course, but dad needs to be in charge of this.

    10-11 years old is the proper time to start. Your son’s old enough so that his mind has begun to expand and focus on the social world (again, as the Matrix educators know), but his brain, body, and social life is not yet flooded with adolescent chaos. Your husband will need to work out the kinks in his boy-to-man training program and guide your son through the prerequisites. By the time your son reaches adolescence, and bigger things are competing for your son’s time, dad’s program should be an smooth-running, established operation moving onto advanced lessons.


  96. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 15:02 #

    Monks are self-sufficent. No need pussy. They have a quite military discipline and hierarchy. They are spirituals. They are in touch with Nature. They are -in Europe- surroundend by art and beauty. They do charity, they make fantastic liquor. And their boss is God. Not any bitch.
    And they have PEACE of mind.


  97. Eric August 13, 2013 at 15:03 #

    * should be the classroom your husband USES to teach your son.


  98. Aye. August 13, 2013 at 15:18 #

    Liz: shouldn’t some things just be taken for granted? For instance, I can go to the bathroom! All by myself! A two year old might require great praise for this, but I am not a two year old. I don’t throw many tantrums: again, I am not a two year old.

    It might just be his way of appreciating that I am generally pleasant to spend time with. And I am glad he notices this. But if credit is given to me for being a well-formed and thoughtful woman, then I don’t really need to be thanked every time I don’t act like a two year old.

    I guess it’s just a matter of developing a pattern of trust. He has obviously seen evidence of women being angry and dominating. I am not so much, but maybe he requires more evidence before he relies on it as law. He is a scientist, after all.


  99. Liz August 13, 2013 at 15:23 #

    IOW, like nuns, with the sexes reversed. No need for cock, or a guy. Kind of like feminists.


  100. Liz August 13, 2013 at 15:29 #

    On other words, like a nun but with the sexes reversed. And they need men like a fish needs a bicycle.

    Combating feminism with the male equivalent of feminism seems to be the new black now.


  101. Liz August 13, 2013 at 15:30 #

    Oops…didn’t know my first comment made it. Redundant, that.


  102. Eric August 13, 2013 at 15:30 #

    Ah yes, the Manosphere definitions debate flares up again.

    It never gets us anywhere because while the different schools of the Manosphere have key concepts in common (Positive Masculinity, against modern Feminism), they also have distinct points of view with distinct premises.

    In the way of MGTOW I favor, rather than engage in a definitions pissing contest against our Manosphere brethren, we instead critically seek out what’s true from the various perspectives. We then choose which of the truths to apply to ourselves. Individual customization is a feature of MGTOW, anyway. MGTOW is not a religion. MGTOWs can and do shift positions as they evolve and adopt PUA and complementarian traits.

    In April, EK posted on this topic:

    My comments in the thread:

    “A characteristic I’ve noticed with many MGTOWs is defensiveness about their personal masculine code of honor/values/morals/ethics. They’re not fighting the red pill. Rather, the red pill reveals to them the difficulty of fighting their way upstream for what they believe. PUAs who navigate with the flow mock these MGTOWs for going against the current despite knowing as fellow red pillers which way the water flows.

    There is also the anti-Churchian Christian group. I don’t know too much about them, but they seem to have a strong presence.

    It goes to the warnings by Rollo and others about the Feminine Imperative and red-pill women. The red pill has points in common across demographics, but women have their version of the red pill that is not the same as men’s red pill. The women’s red pill has a feminine orientation. I respect red-pill women and support their goals. But it behooves red-pill men to recognize that red-pill women, for the most part, are not supporting men’s interests exclusively but rather a resetting of gender rules in order to nurture a healthier complementary male-female culture. A few exceptional red-pill women champion men’s interests without a complementarian male-female emphasis (GirlWritesWhat, Emma the Emo come to mind), but they are still women with a feminine orientation.

    To answer your question, red-pill men share a masculine orientation. From there, we split off. Many red-pill men want a similar gender rules reset as red-pill women, albeit from a masculine orientation. Other red-pill men, ie, PUAs, prefer instead to maximize their benefit with gender conditions as they are. Like the complementarian red pill, the PUA red pill is based on male-female relations.

    The MGTOW red pill is different. MGTOWs share the masculine orientation with other red-pill men. A lot of the self-improvement and empowerment advice is the same across the Manosphere. But MGTOW is introverted and eschews complementarian and PUA male-female goals. The complementarian and PUA red pills both require up front compromise in some form with women. In other words, the other red pills incorporate women into their codes. As opposed to the others’ basis in male-female relations, the MGTOW red pill is based on not compromising on living life on my terms – my personal masculine code.

    MGTOW tends to asceticism, but it’s not asexual. Desire and the shared masculine orientation mean MGTOWs can and do compromise and cross into the other red pill circles.

    Red-pill women-endorsed manhood is certainly preferred to feminist women-endorsed manhood, but the red-pill version also requires internalizing an identity defined outside the self.

    First principles:

    For PUAs, and to a lesser extent complementarians, ‘Just be yourself’ is the blue pill that must be thrown up in order to do the self-improvement needed to attract and hold onto women.

    For MGTOWs, ‘Be myself’ is the credo at the heart of self-improvement.

    In their principles, though not as a social-political movement, MGTOW reminds me of a male-centric version of feminism.”


  103. Liz August 13, 2013 at 15:38 #

    Upon consideration, I guess you’re right Aye. I’ve been with my husband too long to remember the specifics of our dating weeks but I do think I would have grown tired of gratuitous gratitude (alliterative joy!) pretty quickly.

    I’ll second the above suggestions from others…and Athol Kay in particular.


  104. Liz August 13, 2013 at 15:44 #

    The main problem in this particular case is, the father wasn’t doing his job. It is the father’s job to discipline the girl (and teach her the proper way to act in doing so) and protect his son.


  105. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 15:58 #

    Imagine you live the life of a monk: walking aroung a Gothic “claustro” (you can do it in Europe in any city, in the old town), walks in the Nature, reading good literature, enjoying art, Gregorian chant, owning your own company about, maybe… making liquor (traditional, monastery style), earning good money with that, having meetings with your male friends around a fireplace, in the winter… and going with hookers regularly.
    That is not Perfection? Summum Bonum, Vita Beata, etc?
    Instead of dealing with a moody, fat, ugly middle aged wife and the children, and the bills, etc. and having less sex than “a married man” (as we say in Spain)


  106. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 16:05 #

    “Owning your SMALL company”.


  107. Eric August 13, 2013 at 16:06 #

    Hazing is not the same as bullying, although the line between the two can be crossed.

    Technically speaking, Army drill sergeants haze new recruits. Heck, it’s on the training schedule in red plase.


  108. Eric August 13, 2013 at 16:08 #

    * phase


  109. Liz August 13, 2013 at 16:13 #

    I’m in full agreement, Eric.
    We have all sons, and fortunately my husband is on exactly the same page.


  110. Liz August 13, 2013 at 16:17 #

    Earning good money and frequently hookers must be a type of monk I’m unfamiliar with, who take vows of celibacy and penury, and live in a communal existence.


  111. Spaniard August 13, 2013 at 17:29 #

    Liz, obviously you do not know Spanish monks well.
    Read this Middle Age book: “Libro de Buen Amor”, by Arcipreste de Hita.
    Monks and friers are the biggest johns on Earth.


  112. Eric August 13, 2013 at 17:55 #

    I hope you make a difference confronting your son’s school admins and maybe even push them towards red-pill friendly solutions. I wouldn’t bank on them seeing the light, though, nor trust them to continue steering in the right direction if they did compromise with you on this one.


  113. Dire Badger August 13, 2013 at 20:54 #

    still sounds like Narcissistic nihilism to me 😛


  114. Eric August 13, 2013 at 22:59 #

    MGTOWs differ, which is a defining feature of MGTOW, but generally speaking, very few MGTOWs are nihilists. Monk-ish asceticism is common among MGTOWs. The part of the soul which would otherwise be constructed around wife and kids is constructed around a personal code, instead.

    As far as Narcissistic, well, a rose by any other word, I guess. When the individual rather than the male-female dyad is the basic building block, it’s going to look different. That said, Nature does call on MGTOWs, too. I agree with you the imperative to father children is more than a social construct.


  115. feeriker August 14, 2013 at 06:03 #

    I would wager that this is a big part of Robert Crampton’s problem. Miserably abused as he is, he also probably realizes that the abuse hasn’t even started in earnest yet. That will happen once that bitch-cunt Satan’s-daughter wife of his decides that she’s tired of living under the same roof with him and initiates divorce proceedings.

    Granted, my impression is that this guy has always been a mangina, but I’m also fairly sure that much of his milquetoastiness as manifested in his written work is just a coping mechanism. For all any of us know, he’s five short minutes or one more major argument away from snapping and taking a pole axe to Her Bitchiness, something that will solidify his memory in the British tabloids long after he’s dead and buried.


  116. Dire Badger August 14, 2013 at 08:43 #

    It’s times like these that I really wish there WERE a ‘patriarchy’ so I could bitch at them for totally dropping the ball. I’d join in a heartbeat and devote myself to getting them back on track.


  117. Master Beta August 14, 2013 at 10:18 #

    The Zarathustras of society. Gone into the mountains. Sometimes I want to just abandon all my possessions and piss off into the mountains.


  118. Master Beta August 14, 2013 at 10:24 #

    The terms alpha and beta were first used when describing wolf/dog packs I believe. So by your logic, is a lone wolf a beta or omega wolf? I think a lone wolf is neither beta nor alpha.


  119. Dire Badger August 14, 2013 at 11:51 #

    In response to earlier comments about manhood, there are only four questions you have to ask yourself.

    What will I work for?
    What will I kill for?
    What will I live for?
    What will I die for?

    Or, to be more verbose,
    “What are the things I that I consider worth struggle, labor, and sacrifice? What values are worth taking a human life? What is worth devoting my life to? What is worth sacrificing my life for?”

    This is, by definition, the four questions of manhood. If you cannot answer any of these questions, or the answer to any of them is ‘nothing’, or if you cannot understand why these questions are important, then you are not a man.

    These are the questions man has wrestled with for as long as history has been recorded, and they will always be the most important questions any man can ever ask himself.


  120. Eric August 14, 2013 at 13:16 #

    Speaking for myself, though I believe this is common among MGTOWs, bachelorhood wasn’t Plan A.


  121. Eric August 14, 2013 at 13:18 #

    Nietzsche is MGTOW in a nutshell.


  122. Master Beta August 14, 2013 at 16:26 #

    You have no idea what nihilism is.


  123. Master Beta August 14, 2013 at 16:30 #

    No one is a freakin’ nihilist. It’s not possible to be a nihilist. If you are actually a nihilist you are dead, because there is no point in eating.


  124. feeriker August 14, 2013 at 16:42 #

    To paraphrase Martin Lawrence, in his exchange with Monique in the film Welcome Home, Roscoe Jenkins: “I’ll never hit a woman, but I’ll beat the shit out of a bitch!”


  125. feeriker August 14, 2013 at 16:55 #

    It might just be his way of appreciating that I am generally pleasant to spend time with.

    That’s almost certainly what he’s trying to say. The fact that men today feel it necessary to let the women in their lives know that they’re grateful for the fact that they don’t have the personalities of female death camp guards speaks tragic volumes about the current state of western (and more specifically Amerikan) womanhood.


  126. JackAz August 14, 2013 at 16:55 #

    Thanks for writing that. It’s good to be reminded of the fundamentals.


  127. freetofish August 14, 2013 at 17:18 #

    Excellent post eric. If there is one thing that always kind of boggles my mind its this effort to label people. Especially a MGTOW. The essence of going your own way is exactly that. Your way, not some internet label’s way. Or by some guide lines laid down on some blog.

    It’s embracing your personal masculinity, code, philosophy on life. Some think that means eschewing women entirely. Some like Spaniard here only go to professionals for that part of his life, some are closer to the PUA sphere and still date, but on their terms.

    I personally don’t identify as a MRA or the MHRM movement much. Maybe DIre would think I’m a “loser” or “failure” but I’m not married, never going to marry and thanks to the ol snip will never be having kids. My line ends with me so I don’t give a rats ass what happens to the world after I am taking the long dirt nap. So, I spend the majority of my time on pursuits that interest me. Reading, spending time in nature, rebuilding old motor bikes, Getting the most out of the time I have.

    Narcissistic and meaningless existence? I don’t think so. But I guess if the only thing you judge winning and losing in life is passing on your genes, then I guess so. That though means you exist barely above life as a dog or other animal, not an evolved human at all.


  128. freetofish August 14, 2013 at 17:22 #

    It’s quite easy to answer all of them.

    Personal Freedom.


  129. Eric August 14, 2013 at 20:39 #

    You referred to it upthread and it’s my short-hand for explaining the MGTOW concept: If you understand Nietzsche, then you can understand MGTOW.

    A lot of people interpret Nietzsche’s philosophy as nihilist, but it’s not. It’s merely critical, suspicious of social convention as a rule, and individualist.


  130. Eric August 14, 2013 at 20:43 #



  131. Dire Badger August 15, 2013 at 00:23 #

    That answer is WAY too easy. Personal freedom? really? Where does responsibility fit into this?

    There is not, and never has been, any such animal as ‘personal freedom’. The best you can hope for is perhaps self-determination. choosing your own responsibilities. minimizing the responsibilities that others inflict on you involuntarily.

    personal freedom. How are you planning to eat? well, you have just discovered that you have to limit your own freedom to include getting food. Shelter? companionship? reproduction? avoiding getting eaten? Each of these choices limits your ‘personal freedom’. The only personal freedom you really have is the freedom to put a bullet in your head… and then of course, you have no personal freedom at all.

    Parroting some pat answer doesn’t make you a man.


  132. Dire Badger August 15, 2013 at 00:39 #

    It is possible, I am not the keeper of universal truths. I do however know full well what ‘belaboring a point of semantics in order to appear victorious while adding nothing to the dialogue’ means.


  133. Goober August 15, 2013 at 03:17 #

    Well said. Beers are on me if you ever get out Idaho way.


  134. Dire Badger August 15, 2013 at 06:15 #

    actually I don’t live far from Idaho…. Salt Lake. It seems that most remaining men seem to live in that area. Less Colorado, of course. Go south and you get white nationalists, north and you get canadian socialists, I just hope we manage to protect the middle in the coming hell.


  135. Master Beta August 15, 2013 at 09:35 #

    It just grinds on me because people on that Heartiste website are always using the term nihilism (meaninglessness of all aspects of existence) to mean something else, usually hedonism (a life of perusing personal pleasures and fulfilment). They seem to think that not participating in society makes you a nihilist……. It does not.


  136. Master Beta August 15, 2013 at 09:40 #



  137. Eric August 15, 2013 at 13:41 #

    This ‘meaning of life’ debate is one that philosophers have been throwing around the horn for hundreds, or thousands, of years.

    When evaluating contradictory truths, I find it helps to broadly categorize them as Natural or Constructed, and Individual (or personal) or Social, which gives me 4 boxes. It’s not so rigid because truths can sit in more than 1 box, but the exercise does help with beginning to sort out personal beliefs.


  138. Dire Badger August 15, 2013 at 14:02 #

    True, but while we still have not been able to classify the meaning of life, we HAVE been able to create workable rules that are an excellent substitute. I like your four boxes, I tend to just have two boxes…. natural and cultural. They do have three seperate sub-boxes, though.. survival, progress, and fullfilment.


  139. freetofish August 15, 2013 at 17:00 #

    Wow, angry much? You asked what I would work for, kill for, live for and die for and my personal freedom is the answer to all of that.

    I work to be financially independent. I owe not a dime to a single person, bank, company or government in this world. That’s personal freedom.

    I grow my own food, hunt and fish. I can, freeze smoke, salt and could be entirely self sufficient if the need be. I don’t live in a big city.

    I do date women, but on my terms and have in the past and will in the future walk away whenever my terms are not followed. I am entirely happy in my own skin, entertaining myself. I don’t NEED companionship to survive.

    I have no desire to reproduce.

    My gun is sufficient to keep me from getting eaten. Unlike your probable city self. I live in rural BC. Bear and cougar country. Never had an issue a bear banger and some common sense hasn’t solved.

    Further, just because it is hard to obtain complete personal freedom in this world, doesn’t mean it’s not worth the effort to obtain as much as you can or being willing to die to keep what you have.

    I’m honestly curious what in your mind “makes a man” Sounds to me you think only reproducing makes a man. Being a wage slave to raise some progeny. Well enjoy that I guess. Myself, I will be hip deep in the river behind my house fly fishing instead.


  140. Dire Badger August 16, 2013 at 03:57 #

    Good call. That sort of thing is already going on in Utah


  141. Dire Badger August 16, 2013 at 04:00 #

    actually, that term is ‘narcissism’….well… close, anyway. But the actual two-word term ‘narcissistic nihilism’ means something different from the sum of it’s parts… it actually means pursuing your own pleasures while disregarding the value of anything that is not directly related to your own pleasure.


  142. Master Beta August 16, 2013 at 09:45 #

    You just described hedonism.

    And I’ve never heard the term narcissistic nihilism used before. Nihilism means the absence of, so technically a narcissistic nihilist would be the least narcissistic person of all.

    Existential nihilism – means absence of any meaning.
    Epistemological nihilism – means absence of any objective truth.
    Moral nihilism – means absence of any moral code.
    Political nihilist – basically means an anarchist.


  143. Jim March 13, 2014 at 02:48 #

    Agreed. It is damned sick.


  144. Jim March 13, 2014 at 02:50 #

    Again, we’re of the same mind here DB. Well said.



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    […] the same social consequences apply to women. If you are a bitch, demeaning and castrating your man, Your children will see that. And when they can, they will run: to be raised by wolves if necessary, because that is a less bad […]


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