A regular reader sent me an email asking me to address the curious case of “who pays for dinner”, specifically requesting strategies to avoid always being on the hook for the bill. We’ll get to that, but first, let’s take a look at some of the justifications women trot out to explain why they think men should always ruck up for dinner.
The conversation has been in the media a lot recently owing to this new study that shows most women are incredibly happy to let men pay all the expenses in exchange for the pleasures of her company. Men, of course, are not quite so enamored of the wallet-rape, and would like women to pick up a few dinners here and there.
Consistent with conventional norms, most men (84 percent) and women (58 percent) reported that men pay for most expenses, even after dating for a while. Over half (57 percent) of women claim they offer to help pay, but many women (39 percent) confessed they hope men would reject their offers to pay, and 44 percent of women were bothered when men expected women to help pay. Nearly two-thirds (64 percent) of men believed that women should contribute to dating expenses, and many feel strongly about that: Nearly half of men (44 percent) said they would stop dating a woman who never pays. A large majority of men (76 percent), however, reported feeling guilty accepting women’s money.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-08/asa-seb080913.php
Elizabeth Tannen at the Huffington Post thinks men should pay because women aren’t equal. That’s a strange bit of logic, isn’t it? If women paid for dinner in equal measure to men, wouldn’t that in fact MAKE them equal?
She also thinks men should pay as a signal that he recognizes women must be pursued, wooed and flattered. Again, not exactly an egalitarian relationship, is it?
But isn’t there power, too, in letting a guy pay? Doesn’t it, too, illustrate that our affections need to be earned, that we need to be wooed, courted, because we are worthy? Isn’t that also its own assertion of power?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabeth-tannen/dating-advice_b_2018679.html
Jezebel commenters trip all over the issue, too, coming up with the seemingly fair solution of “whomever does the asking does the paying”. Right. Except that it’s almost always men who ask, which means it will almost always be men who pay. And it doesn’t look like that will be changing anytime soon.
Nice run around the tight end, there, ladies!
The comments for both these articles are pretty instructive – a self-declared feminist’s sense of being entitled to a man’s money is really quite astonishing.
lolaLAU
Oh boy, this brings up a lot of issues for me. I am a women’s college educated feminist. My boyfriend makes at least twice as much money as I do. He won’t pay for anything for me. And yes, I have mentioned this to him. We live together and everything is split straight down the middle. *sigh* It would really be nice if he bought me a burrito every once in a while
Aesop’s Foibles
Ugh, the anal-retentive-about-money boyfriend. Had one of those for six long years. Never failed to piss me off. If we didn’t split the check, he would ask me if I had any cash for the tip. And he made around 50k a year! And a lot of the time during that relationship, I wasn’t even working. Needless to say, that shit got old real quick. For example, one Christmas, I was on unemployment. We were discussing gifts. He said, I’d like to set a dollar limit on gifts for each other, so neither of us feel like we’re getting taken advantage of. Meaning, he knew I wouldn’t be spending much, so he didn’t want to spend too much on me. Because that would somehow mean I was “taking advantage” of him. I couldn’t believe that shit!! It ruined my Christmas, that year. Boy am I glad that’s somethin I no longer have to deal with. Talk about stabby!!!
Seriously? This just blows my mind. Ask a feminist about equality as she will “rah rah rah” your ears off, but ask her to pay her own way and suddenly she gets’ “stabby”?
http://jezebel.com/5087435/am-i-a-bad-feminist-for-wanting-my-boyfriend-to-pay-for-dinner
http://jezebel.com/dinner-tab-chivalry-is-one-dating-convention-that-might-1099305385
I think this article at xojane on the subject takes the cake, though.
This is Helena Andrews:
IT SORTA PISSES ME OFF WHEN GUYS DON’T PAY FOR DINNER AND HERE’S WHY
Aren’t we all a little confused when it comes to the right or wrong way to date in the 21st Century?
http://www.xojane.com/sex/i-sorta-pisses-me-off-when-guys-dont-pay-for-dinner-and-heres-why
Back in the day, I went out with this guy who refused to take me to dinner on our first date.
Why didn’t you take him?
We’d met at a bar a few weeks before, late-night chatted on the phone a couple of times and then finally he’d asked me to meet him at a Smithsonian after work. Apparently there was going to be a nearly sold-out lecture on volcanoes in outerspace that he just couldn’t miss. My “good story to tell the girls later” button flashed bright red.
So you don’t really like the guy and you aren’t very interested in science lectures at the Smithsonian but you still agreed to meet him after work?
Did you carry a flashing neon sign that said “looking for a free meal”, because you might as well have.
After said lecture, which was as wildly inappropriate for a first date as one would imagine, we walked through DC’s version of Times Square in pursuit of what I assumed would be food. Because, hello, date. It was dinnertime, past 8 o’clock, and my stomach roared angrily as we passed one cheesy tourist trap after another.
Why is a lecture about volcanoes in outer space inappropriate for a first date? I think it sounds pretty awesome.
And you “assumed” food, did you? Because date? Okay. No problem with that. It’s the “free food” assumption that kind of grates. You didn’t even enjoy the lecture, which I’m sure you were ever so clever to disguise completely, right? No sighing or eye-rolling or acting like a spoiled brat?
And now you think he should pay for your meal?
“Oh, tapas! I love tapas!” I shouted cheerily as we strolled by an al fresco pan-Latino joint. He grunted and kept it moving.
“Hey, let me buy you some tapas!”.
Try that next time, sweetheart.
Over the next five blocks, we lapped watering hole after watering hole on the long walk back to the metro and all the while I didn’t get why he kept shooting down every single one of my suggestions. What is this guy? An asshole or something?
An asshole because you haven’t offered to pay yet, and he doesn’t seem thrilled about reducing his own resources? Wow. It doesn’t take much to be branded an asshole, does it?
Once we finally got to the train station — me hot, tired, and starving, him not — I just blurted out, “What is your problem?” “What do you mean?” he asked so sweet and innocent I almost forgot how damn hungry I was. “Um, I’m friggin’ starving. I don’t know what you’re trying to do right now. But I’m going to go get something to eat.” Clearly I hadn’t forgotten entirely.
I’m going to get something to eat. She still isn’t including him! What planet is this chick living on? She really thinks he should be overjoyed at the prospect of spending his money on someone so incredibly selfish? And bitchy!
“Yeah, well, I have some chicken breasts and frozen vegetables at the house,” he answered meekly. “You’re welcome to that.”
He goes from grunting asshole to meek in the span of a few blocks. Nice to see Helena not deploying any casual stereotypes about men, isn’t it? He grunts. Obviously stupid. He’s gets meek. How unmanly.
What? I was so taken aback that I laughed, which in retrospect was a real jerk move. But come on, I hardly knew this dude. There was no way this Olivia Benson groupie was going back to his killer kitchen where unsuspecting first dates got deep-fried and I told him as much.
Well, she gets points for admitting that she’s a jerk, and for taking the sensible precaution of NOT going back to some guy’s apartment when she barely knows him. Maybe the deepfried comment was a bit over the top?
This is quite possibly a good time to discuss the difference between assuming all men are rapists and murderers, which is insulting and ignorant, and yet at the same time understanding that certain actions will make you vulnerable and it’s best to assume a little personal responsibility and stay out of those situations.
I don’t need to believe that all Mexicans are thieves to know that I should probably not carry my Ipad under my arm in Tiajuana.
No, no, no, he explained. He’d been on a budget — a tight one — and taking dames to dinner just didn’t compute. I was shocked and, more importantly, touched by his honesty. So much so that we continued to date despite me not being that kind of girl. The kind that doesn’t demand some good ole fashioned courting from the giddy up. I expect doors to be opened, men to walk on the “outside” down the sidewalk, and dinners (at least the first few) to be paid for.
And there’s that giant disconnect again. Helena considers herself a proper modern woman, and she wonders why Steve Harvey wants her to act like a lady but think like a man, because she is neither. She doesn’t read books, hoards Clinique make-up and fakes orgasms. She is 31 years old.
Uhm, honey, you are not looking like you have a whole lot to offer men, but you still demand a man’s protection, chivalry and money?
Why? What do you have to give in exchange for that?
http://www.xojane.com/author/helena
I know I know. This is so heteronormative. So detrimental to the fights against binary gender roles. So completely archaic and outdated. But so what?
Hey, what’s a little brutal hypocrisy between friends, right?
According to a new study “Who Pays for Dates? Following versus Challenging Conventional Gender Norms” most people still hold some conventional views about who should foot the bill.
This is the study I referenced above.
“Men (84 percent) and women (58 percent) reported that men pay for most expenses, even after dating for a while. Over half (57 percent) of women claim they offer to help pay, but many women (39 percent) confessed they hope men would reject their offers to pay, and 44 percent of women were bothered when men expected women to help pay. Nearly two-thirds (64 percent) of men believed that women should contribute to dating expenses, and many feel strongly about that: Nearly half of men (44 percent) said they would stop dating a woman who never pays. A large majority of men (76 percent), however, reported feeling guilty accepting women’s money.”
What’s most interesting here is how conflicted and confused and utterly contrary everyone seems to be. Women will “offer” to pay but secretly hope that offer will be rejected. Men say they’d stop dating a woman who never paid (so would I) but then confess to feeling guilty about accepting a girl’s debit card. It’s a rhythmless two-step we all seem to be doing with no dance teachers in sight.
Go back and read the study again. Most men think women SHOULD contribute to dating expenses. Less than half of women report that they DO actually help out, and even when they offer, a significant chunk want their offer rejected. Almost half of women are BOTHERED when a man expects them to contribute.
No one seems particularly confused, and the only contrary ones are the women who refuse to pay their fair share, or even any share at all.
For me, it’s about combating the “no date” dating culture that’s cropped up around hooking up and not taking names. Don’t get me wrong, if all you want is a Midori Sour and ride on the skin bus, then go ahead and treat yo’ self. But I’ve found during my unintentional field research on the subject that a good litmus test of whether or not something is a thing is if someone’s willing to plunk down the first of five easy payments. That sounded gross, but I’m being for real.
Five easy payments. How do you know when something is a “thing” and not just a ride on the skin bus?
When the man pays. Five times.
Okay then. Do you let them know up front they are expected to pay for five dates or do they just have to guess?
Usually if I pay for dinner, especially if it’s the very first dinner out with a potentially romantic partner, it’s because I want to leave as soon as possible. Not that I can’t leave if someone else pays, but if I’m paying then I’m the one flagging down the waiter and twisting around in my seat for my coat. Bad sign.
Jesus Christ. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out, peaches!
But when someone else is paying then I’m surrendering my time in a way that says, “What’s next.” All that logic, of course, is Helena specific and has been thrown out the window more than once.
Is he not also surrendering his time? Why does that time have no value?
Case in point: The Volcanoes Guy. I should have known it wouldn’t work out. Not because he didn’t have the scratch for a proper first date (whether it be dinner or a damn ice cream cone) but because in the end it said something more about how he valued me and my time.
Another week or more went by before we actually sat down for a meal that he paid for. This only after he explained — in detail — about how he never takes women to dinner at the onset because he didn’t want to waste his time and money on someone he was just iffy about, which, of course, made sense but in the douchiest way possible. That same brand of bravado-slash-stinginess bleed out onto the rest of our interaction until there was nothing but red correction marks over the whole thing.
But…but….but…. didn’t Helena just say that paying for dinner FIVE TIMES is exactly how he shows that he’s not “iffy” about things? Isn’t that SUPPOSED to be an indication that he is serious about the relationship? Why should he shell out if he’s not yet certain about her potential as a romantic partner?
The only way this makes sense is if Helena feels entitled to ALL meals being paid for up to that magic number five, at which point she knows the relationship is a “thing”. And then what?
So yeah, I was never in it for the free meal, but I was interested in being treated like I deserved it.
There we go. She wants to be treated as if she deserves free meals.
Why you might ask? Why do you deserve anything?
Good question. Really good question. Why do you deserve anything, Helena?
Because I said so.
Oh my god, it’s too much.
Did she really write that?
Because I said so?
BECAUSE I SAID SO?
And if I don’t say so then who will?
Awwww. No one to tell you deserve everything you little heart desires on someone else’s dime? Are you single, Helena? I’m so confused as to why. You’re so delightful!
Maybe if I’d been the one doing the pursuing I would’ve taken him out for dinner, but that’s not how this particular chase went down. Perhaps therein lies the line? Whoever does the picking up should also pick up the check? I’m not sure there can be any overarching rules besides the ones we make for ourselves, but I am sure that once you’ve made them, you should stick to them.
Well, if you’re going to stick to your rules, Helena, you should probably get a cat. You’re gonna be lonely. And again, creating the “rule” that the person doing the “picking up” should pick up the check is really sweet in theory, but when the practice is that only men pursue, it will always be only men that pay.
The comments on the xoJane article veered off weirdly into trying to parse why men should walk on the outside of the sidewalk: most commenters agreed that it was to protect the lady from potential threats that might arise on the street. His body is a shield she can use against runaway cars or pickpockets or errant bicycle couriers.
Interesting that very few commenters had anything to say about the expectation that a man pay for a woman’s company, and that her time is valuable while his is not. Very few people want to discuss that at all. Which leads me to believe that women like Helena are actually very common.
So what is a man to do, facing down these 31 year old shrews who think all meals should be free? How do you avoid that situation in the first place?
Personally, I agree that men should always pay for the first date. But Helena and her fans have made me realize that there are two types of women: women who accept a man’s care and see him as a potential provider, and women who feel like they are OWED money and food and flattery and chivalry and protection.
The trick is to distinguish between them.
There is a fairly simple, straightforward way to do that: make the first date really cheap. No matter how sad your budget is, almost everyone can afford a loaf of bread, some apples, a bit of cheese and a bottle of wine.
Picnic!
If you’re not up for even that amount of food preparation, scout out a hotdog cart and a scenic spot to sit in the local park, or along the river. If you insist on a proper restaurant, check out the local Vietnamese noodle bowl shops and then pre-order two giant steaming bowls of delicious noodles to be ready when you set foot in the joint. Noodle bowls are usually dirt cheap.
My first date with Mr. JB took place in a bathroom and we ate McDonald’s out of a paper bag. That was memorable.
No matter how much money you have or don’t have the first date should be dirt cheap because it will tell you a lot about the woman you are with. If she gets pissy about eating hotdogs or a fresh baguette on the river bank, she is not interested in YOU. She’s there for a free meal, and you know what?
Fuck her.
Any woman who sneers at a man who is careful with money is an idiot. She is not thinking long-term. She’s in it to grab as much as she can for herself. And the expectation that you should spend oodles of money on her because “she said so”?
Run. For. The. Hills.
Never, ever try to impress a woman with money on a first date. The ones who are there for YOU and the ones who are there for your money will be impossible to distinguish. In fact, the more money you have, the more reluctant you should be to spend it on the first few dates. Save the Broadway show and five star restaurant for much later. The first dates are investments in a potential future.
Men should absolutely pay for the first date, and maybe even the second and the third and then it’s time to see if she has her priorities straight. She needs to provide a meal for you. Not necessarily pay for, but provide. Not every woman can cook, and that’s fine.
What she needs to do is CARE.
Anyone can learn to cook or just become really good at ordering in, but it’s hard to teach someone to care about someone other than themselves if they really don’t. Providing food is the most basic way to show someone that you care.
No matter how otherwise great she is, if a woman doesn’t offer to provide you with food fairly early on in your relationship, she is not the right woman for you. Wait for the woman who cares that you’re hungry and brings you a bacon sandwich. Wait for the woman who cares that you’re cold and brings you hot chocolate. Wait for the woman who knows you are working late and brings you a warm dinner.
If you really want to make a friend, go to someone’s house and eat with him… the people who give you their food give you their heart.
Cesar Chavez
And always buy unsalted butter for your fresh bread. Why?
Because I said so.
Holy crap, that makes me want to slap myself! I hate that phrase!
But seriously, salted butter is icky.
Lots of love,
JB
judgybitch 
Thanks JB, a sound and entertaining analysis, as usual. The following short video clip is one of my favourites when it comes to dating etiquette. It’s by Jim Jefferies, an Australian comedian, very much in the Bill Burr mould. And what a fine mould that is.
http://j4mb.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/jim-jefferies-talks-about-relationships/
Mike Buchanan
JUSTICE FOR MEN & BOYS
(and the women who love them)
http://j4mb.org.uk
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Excellent JB.
Lucky me. When I met my wife around 1996, she very often ponied up for whatever it was we were doing (she’s a school teacher, so nope, no money bags—just a decent sense of frugality and savings). I was building a business at the time and she even bought our first house together, $30k from her savings. It was a fixer upper and I paid her back by working my ass off remodeling it over 2-3 years. We’re in CA, so six years later it sold for a $450K profit. She did well on that deal. In the meantime, she sold a house she owned with another teacher and rolled the money into a vacation home in the mountains for us.
Again, I went to work.
Before:
http://www.richardnikoley.com/Cabin/Before_the_Rebuild.html
After:
http://www.richardnikoley.com/Cabin/Good_Life.html
We have always maintained separate bank accounts, separate credit cards, etc. We never have disputes about money and often have little spats about who gets to pay for dinner, movies, drinks, hotel rooms and such.
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1st date comes after sex. Then there is no conflict: man not hesitant to pay, woman rightfully offended if he doesn’t.
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Love this, but you’re wrong about the butter. 😉
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I’ve always been a big fan of traditional gender roles. I know, big newsflash there, right?
I haven’t dated since I was 18 years old, but when I did, I paid for everything, and I walked on the outside of the sidewalk and everything. But I also made sure that the women that I did this for were worth it before I asked them out. Helena is nothing if NOT WORTH IT.
I think the biggest thing that struck me about her article is that it was 100% all about her. There was no consideration at all for volcano guy. None.
I think volcano guy’s idea for a first date was pretty cool – take her somewhere where you’ll get a chance to see her interest in things outside herself, outside her zone of influence; hell, outside of her planet and see how she reacts. If she’s bright-eyed and interested in learning about volcanoes on other planets, then you’ll know the following about her:
1. She’s actually bright and intelligent and capable of caring about something that has no effect on her at all, and is curious about the world and the universe and probably will have the ability to carry on an interesting conversation over dinner, thus making it worth your time and money, OR…
2. She doesn’t give a rat fuck about volcanoes on other planets, but sees that you do, and cares enough about how she presents to you (ie, cares enough about YOU) to at least pretend to enjoy the lecture so that she can get to know you better.
Either option above is promising enough that you spring for dinner and see where it goes.
On the other hand, if she’s disinterested, bored, annoyed, and eye-rolling through the whole thing, then you’ll know the following about her:
1. She’s likely not very bright, not very interested in anything outside of her specific zone of influence and her life (ie, she’s not interested in anything that doesn’t effect HER, so she’s self-centered and selfish).
2. She doesn’t give enough of a shit about you to even care about trying to pretend to enjoy what you enjoy.
Both of those things tell you something about her.
If the second case was the case, I don’t blame him for not springing for dinner – a smart dude could see at that point that the whole thing was destined for failure, and would leave him a couple of dinners poorer with nothing to show for it besides wasting his time with a selfish idiot.
I think volcano guy is clever, like fox.
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This phenomenon is why I’m absolutely convinced that I’ll be alone forever, or at least until I’m rich enough to not care the least amount about wasting money on random women who almost certainly aren’t worth it. I refuse to participate in a silly little song and dance that strongly implies that her time is more valuable than my time, and that her company is more valuable than mine. Splitting the check and putting limits on gift-giving IS in fact the only real way to ensure that *neither* party is “taking advantage” of the other.
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Second for Jim Jeffries! His whole show Alcoholocaust (I highly recommend you watch it in its entirety) is completely not PC, and the audience laughing is a telling sign of how much censorship we are imposing on ourselves.
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Women expecting men to pay on the first date is seen as normal, but men expecting women to put out after he paid for her is perverse, shallow and shameful. Anyone who is the least bit game aware will tell you that paying for women does not improve one’s chances of success with them, so why bother? Andrews admits herself that she broke her rule of couple of times, who wants to bet that she gave it up for an alpha? Is it really so strange that dating has been replaced by hookups in this climate? Betas have tried paying for dinners and, seeing that they didn’t get anything in return ever, stopped. Meanwhile, alphas realized they don’t even need to pay for a hot dog to get the girl.
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Well said goober, I definitely need to strategize like this guy before going head first into a date. I was in a relationship where I paid for 99 % of everything we did or meals we ate. It seemed like it was always her idea too, wanting to eat at restaurants and not offering to help pitch in for the bill once the check came. In hindsight, that was my fault for letting it get to that point. The only time her debit card came out was when it was a relatively small bill like fast food, and that was only occasionally on her part. Judgy’s advice was very insightful and helpful for any future prospects, and being that I enjoy cooking, I can totally do the picnic thing to kind of gauge who I’m dealing with before deciding if she’s worth investing time and money with. Unfortunately in life we have to learn things the hard way a lot of the time! But that relationship was a learning process for me. The problem now is that the women I have dated, have that same expectation and same demeanor that she had, so it seems I can’t get past the first or second date. I often wonder if it’s just the culture here in the area that I live, or if its just the norm everywhere. But yes I agree, that the man should pay for at least the first date, and maybe a couple more before the women starts to chip in on dates. Judgy, I guess the only other thing I would ask is, how does a guy go about asking the girl to chip in, is that something you ask before you agree to plans or if its a “on the fly” situation, how do you ask for a contribution without offending her??? And thanks for the wonderful write-up, it was exactly what I was looking for!
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Sheesh! Glad I don’t have to deal with today’s confusion in dating! It was bad enough when I was single (back in the Bronze Age). Luckily, I avoided traditional dating for the most part and just hung in mixed company packs until I paired off with my eventual husband. We were both a couple of impoverished proles, so our dates consisted of dive bars and parties at various dumpy apartments. Sometimes, I’d get up enough scratch to make spaghetti, even! Sounds like fun, doesn’t it?
I never felt comfortable having guys pay for anything; as girls we were told to always pick the cheapest thing on the menu (I stuck with usually just ordering a beverage and watching the guy eat his meal) and if you allowed a guy to spend money, he had leverage to insist on sexual favors to get “his money’s worth” and of course, you couldn’t allow him to do much lest you be slut-labeled.
A hint to women: Offering to pay and then putting a guy in the loser box when he takes you at your word is kind of a dick move. Just pay your own way – it’s easier. Or do only free activities. If you have to date to get fed, you need to get a job (or better job), not troll for boyfriends.
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You know what’s funny about this? I never paid for dinner on a first date. Ever. Until I did. Once. Only once because that’s the man I married. We shared an appetizer of chicken fingers at Denny’s. We couldn’t finish it because we were so caught up in our conversation that the food got cold.
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Exactly. More and more men are saying “dating is for suckers.” And feminists like this one are the main reason why.
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Unsalted butter is definitely the way to go. Food already has so much salt in it these days, so why bring sand to the beach?
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Yet another example of why paying for dates does not get you the girl. Unless we suddenly go back to women not being able to work and earn money, men should absolutely not pay for dates before they had sex with the woman.
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Speaking as a man required to pay for all dates, when someone asks me if prostitution should be legalized, I reply back “How can you tell the difference?”
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Oh yeah, and definitely unsalted butter. Also, margarine is not food.
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If you have game, you don’t need to pay for dates. In fact, I think that every time I ever paid for a girl the first time we met, nothing came of it, while every time I scored, we split the bill or better yet, I didn’t pay at all. Dinner and movie dates are dead and buried, welcome to the 21st century, where the most effective way of getting a woman is *not* being a gentleman.
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How can I ask her to chip in without offending her?
You’re asking the wrong question.
IF nicely asking her to chip in offends her, you’ve got the wrong girl. You shouldn’t be trying to avoid offending her by asking her to chip in. You should be asking with the intention of determining if doing so provokes offense. If, after you very politely ask her if she’d be interested in chipping in, she gets offended…
…send her ass packing.
If she doesn’t, then maybe you’ve got a girl worth keeping.
Stop walking on eggshells around women. Even if you ignore the fact that 99.9% of women don’t like it when you do, you’re still benefitting yourself by being able to ferret out the selfish women who want to date a doormat instead of a human being with unique opinions and desires. Ask them what you want to ask. Tell them what you would like to have happen. Do it all nicely and with the utmost of respect – no one likes an asshole, but women LOVE a guy with confidence, who knows what he wants and isn’t afraid to share that. If any of that pisses her off or offends her or sends her stomping off in a huff, you haven’t reduced your potential for a good relationship one iota – you’ve dodged a bullet, and if anything, you’ve INCREASED your chances of finding a good relationship somewhere else, because you aren’t wasting your time with the selfish slag – time which could be going to finding Mrs. Right.
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http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/i-cruised-okcupid-and-craiglist-for-dates-so-i-could-eat
Relevant article. Woman admits she cruised sites like Craigslist for desperate men because she wanted a free meal. She gets torn to pieces in the comments, but I think this attitude is a lot more common than women want to admit.
Biggest eyebrow raiser? On one date she ordered the most expensive item on the menu because the guy she was scamming flirted with the waitress. So, in other words, she got pissed that her meal ticket didn’t treat it like a real date.
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The overarching theme of feminism is about separating a man from his money, preferably with nothing in return and, if possible, without having to actually deal with the man in question at all. And while one might be tempted to think that feminists would want to break away from the gender stereotypes and welcome the chance date with “equality,” one would be wrong.
Feminist consistency is an oxymoron, but in this case, it’s actually quite consistent. They do feel like they are owed meals because Patriarchy!
That said, both JB and Volcano Guy are exactly right: no pricey first dates, and no nice restaurants until some sort of relationship is established. Volcano Guy shouldn’t have said anything about being on a budget, that was an error, but he was quite right not to invest in the Little Princess until he had a better handle on her. Sounds like he dodged a .50 cal bullet there.
I never plan early dates for a restaurant. The few times where food has been involved has generally been because I was hungry, and then it’s usually sharing an app at the bar. And it is a good barometer. I’ve had women who try to bounce a date to a pricier place or fancy restaurant; not gonna happen. I also never let a date pick a restaurant when we get to that phase.
Any woman who sneers at a man who is careful with money is an idiot.
Women don’t object to a man who is careful with money, they just don’t want it to apply to them because…Snowflake!
I do agree that men should pay for the first and even subsequent dates. And the proffer of a home-cooked meal is a nice way to recompense. (Though because I’m an excellent cook, it can be an evening fraught with tongue-holding and not the good kind.)
I also agree with never buying salted butter. I have my reasons, and I’m adding “because JB says so” to them…
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Because with a hooker, you actually get what you pay for…
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I’ve also never really understood that whole “man walks on the outside of the sidewalk” thing. My ex used to sometimes comment about it. To which I would only reply “you’ve come a long way, baby.”
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Thanks goober, agreed. Lots of women nowadays not worth my time these days!!
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Who goes out to dinner on a first date? Most people learn that one early on after having to sit through dinners ranging from awkward to down right painful. Especially with so many using internet dating now, first date is drinks. If there seems to be something there you can always go for dinner after, but if not you are spared an hour or two of stilted conversation and a bill.
When I go on a first date, I never run a tab. I’ll pay for each round with cash. If she doesn’t at least offer to pick up the 2nd or third round then I usually end the date and thats that.
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I went out of my way to raise a daughter who would not be an asshole. Helena makes me embarrassed that we’re (at least technically) the same sex.
It seems fitting to share the first date I had with my hubby. This would be 1979, we got married in 1980 and yes, we’re still very happy together.
We went to the drive in movies. During the movie, I got chilly. October in Colorado, ya know. So he got a blanket from the trunk. It was the same one they’d used to wrap the deer they’d harvested the weekend before and was covered with deer hair.
My black fuzzy shirt was all hairy, he was embarrassed and apologetic… but I couldn’t quit laughing. It’s one of our favorite stories to drag out during the ‘how we met’ marathons when we meet new people.
::snort::
Wonder how Princess Helena would have handled that?
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Again, we see my biggest beef with feminism in motion. Hypocrisy.
The fact that feminists constantly cry and wail about so-called male “entitlement” (or sense thereof, or…oh who gives a fuck?) and then come up with this horseshit just shows how lacking in credit such a movement is. I’ll deal with women’s rights on my own terms – i.e. on subjects that matter thankyouverymuch!
Again, a jolly marvellous piece JB! You and your site keep up the good work!
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I think the idea was to protect the woman from being splashed if a car (or whatever) drove through a puddle in the street
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If I were a cardiologist I’d have one recommendation for male patients, to reliably bring their blood pressures down. Become a MGTOW. My stress levels halved after I became one in 2010. An acquaintance the other day said to me, ‘The problem with women today? They’re still trying to sell what men no longer want to buy. Women have torn up the nuanced contracts that kept men and women together. Let them reap the harvest. They’ll suffer a damned sight more than men. THEN they might start to reject feminism!’ I may not have what he said exactly right, but you get the gist.
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JB,
What is a girl telling me if I try to pay for her meal and she refuses?
I’ve always thought that meant she wasn’t interested in me romantically, and conversely, if she allowed me to pay for her that meant she was interested in me romantically. But I wonder if that’s actually not a convention.
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I agree with this. Not every guy views dating as transactional (dinner for sex) but some do and I also always paid my own way until I knew what kind of guy I was dealing with.
I met my husband in a similar way you did and our first date followed a day out with a group of friends. We were starving students and split the tab on everything- no big deal. He knew early on that I wasn’t looking to pick his pocket and we’re still together after 18 years.
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She might be checking you out carefully, and she doesn’t want to incur any obligations until she knows you better?
Just a guess.
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If she is spreading her legs, I’ll pick up the check. She’s getting food – I’m getting something for my money. Equitable exchange – isn’t that what women want? Equality?
Of course today, I don’t take a woman out anywhere until she’s been in my bed. They flake too much before – so till she’s invested by literally putting some “skin” in the game, why should I part with a dime? Her company? Come on – most women are about as interesting as a stick (look at the women above who didn’t think a talk about volcanoes in outer-space was cool) – so if I have to put up with her drivel, and pay for it no less – I better be getting something out of the deal… Sorry ladies – you just aren’t that interesting. Maybe if you’re showing a lot of cleavage, and I know I’m going to be getting into that afterwards, you can hold my attention – but usually? Nah…
Oh… “man walks on the outside of the sidewalk” : That actually comes from long ago when chamber pots were emptied out the window – so the man would be it poured on him, rather than the woman. Again – if she wants to be “equal” she can get a chamber-pot dumped on her head too… Equality baby…
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Exactly, it was.
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there’s always a chance that she was raised to pay for herself in pretty much every situation, or just uncomfortable with it
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i believe “he who picks up pays” speaks to the amount of planning put into an event and advance notice if they can’t cover all the costs, or if it’s on the spot where it couldn’t be expected of just one person to pay
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It’s rejection. She doesn’t want to have anything to do with you.
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Most of the feminist views I have heard/read are of women who would prefer to pay or at least pay for her own once in a while if not half of the time. I don’t understand why men and women can’t switch off or just pay for their own. I mean, if it’s that big of a stretch on one’s budget…why are they eating out anyway? Sure, I’ll pay for a guy’s meal, no problem. If he gets me back on the next one, great. If not, no big deal, as long as it’s not every time. I would feel guilty if I was in relationship and never payed. I don’t know how many women feel the same way but I have a feeling women of my mother’s age are more expecting of men to pay than women my age.
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She might fear you are one of those entitled ones who think that if you pay then it’s considered a date and she might have to put out.
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I see this game played most in boys of early 20s age. I guess if you want to keep score this way, don’t be surprised if it backfires in the future.
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As I said in another comment, my personal (and admittedly limited) experience has been that there is a direct causality between paying on the first date and “getting the girl”, only it’s the reverse of what you’d like. I’m not keeping scores, I’m stating facts. Keep feeling entitled to men’s money if that makes you happy, but if you have nothing to give in return, don’t be surprised you’re still single.
FYI, with every girl I “scored” with by not paying on the first date, I ended up paying for most of our later outings/dates. Because I didn’t mind investing in someone who I was already involved with, but I do mind girls seeking a free meal.
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Good comment. The problem is that your solution relies on both parties being reasonable.
In this particular woman’s case I’m afraid that option isn’t on the table. If only more people could just be reasonable and stop setting such ridiculous requirements on each other, which they then fail to share and then considerhis inability to read her mind a failing on the other person’s part.
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But therein lies the rub. According to many, She should fuck before the first date on one hand, but on the other, from the same group of dudes, there is massive amounts of complaint about her n-count.
So which is it?
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Remind me again, JB, why men should always pay for the first date or several dates? Am I really the only one here tweaked a bit by this, especially given that the rest of the post is ironically a (rather good) rant lamenting the sex-based entitlement of some women?
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Because you can learn a lot about the lady by spending very little. How much she cares about that will tell you a lot.
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But if she pays for half and doesn’t care, doesn’t that tell me at least as much?
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I had a few “blind dates” downtown Chicago when I was single. They were: A walk on the lakefront with the dog seeing the skyline, a bike ride on the lakefront without the dog to go to the (free) Lincoln Park Zoo and a walk at night in the expensive side of town to walk on the sidewalk and look in the windows at the cool interior design. None of them panned out. My husband and my first date was an appetizer and a beer (totally dutch, I told him that was the deal right when I sat down) after horse back riding by the boarding stable where I kept my horse. He didn’t ride, but met me there petted the horse, helped hold him while I gave him a bath and put him in his stall. Second date was he came and watched my riding lesson and we went to his softball game. Still to this day I pay for at least 30% of our outings – hotel, dinner, rentals, whatever. When it’s about getting to know ‘the person’ the outings cease to be about what they cost and who pays.
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What’s the purpose of a date?
1) To spend with someone
2) To get to know someone
3) To build memories & experiences
4) To get free meals
5) As a qualifier for a sexual act
6) To vet a potential spouse
…so it depends on why you’re there.
If it’s 1) and/or 2), and you’re both trying to get to know each other, the amount of money spent shouldn’t even be a big deal. Or who pays. Because that’s not the point.
If it’s 6) and you’re officially ‘courting’ or spouse vetting, spending habits & attitudes towards money are KEY. So are attitudes toward mutual respect of time & bodies.
If it’s 3) I’d imagine you already have a relationship & are trying to enjoy it more.
5) is prostitution and 4) is entitlement.
So it would seem to me that you’d better get some sense of who they are before any dates are planned.
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I have a very vague rememberence (I’m old) of a blind date where a “nice” dinner was involved (that didn’t happen often because it just wasn’t my thing.) I don’t remember the details but I got it right away that I needed to go dutch for dinner and absolutely insisted I pay for my meal (I always carried a $20 in my purse, always) and didn’t drink a drop of alcohol. The guy was kind of creep if I recall – he spent a lot a time trying to get me to drink (now that I think about it he might have been a PUA early adopter) and I couldn’t wait to get out of there and go home. I don’t remember what we did after dinner but when he dropped me at home, we stopped in front of my house and I turned, looked at him and said “ok let’s be honest this didn’t go well. I have no interest in seeing you again and I would appreciate it if you would simply stay here while I walk myself to my door.” He was incredulous and yes I got the sense he wanted to “go for it” – I was so relieved when he left. I have to wonder how that would have gone had I A. let him pay and B. let him get me to drink. Probably not well.
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Excellent article.
I have found in my life that when I spent a lot on a woman, she has never liked me more. And when I have spent little on a woman, she has never liked me less. The best dates I have been on in my life, I spent little or no money on the woman and the worst dates I have had, I seem to have spent the most. Funny how that works.
In fact, I live in DC as well and went on a date near “DC’s version of Times Square” (Gallery Place- Chinatown) with a nice young lady a long while ago. Based on her suggestions we spent a night walking around the Washington Monument, Lincoln Memorial, etc. during the nighttime. It was one of the best dates I ever went on (top 3 at least). And I spent no money at all to go on it.
I personally don’t mind spending money on dates for a woman for the first few dates but once we are committed, she needs to start paying half unless I knew that she was unemployed when we first got together.
My personal rule is to keep your investment (financial and emotional) low because you can never truly know whether a woman really likes you until you have having sex with her on a regular basis. Women these days have no trouble stringing a guy along for free dinners and giving him some lame kiss on the cheek while banging some other guy after the date. Keep that thought in your mind and it will discourage you from spending a lot of money on women you are regularly sleeping. Hence, no more than $20 on a date. Ideally, $10 or less. Definitely no dinner or movie dates.
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On several occasions, after having met a woman for drinks, I’d insisted on paying the bill – simply because I’d had such a great time and just wanted to treat the person I was with. It’s something I tend to do when I catch up with male friends/colleagues too (who reciprocate on other occasions).
The women, however, occasionally say something like “You know, it’s such a shame these days that we don’t just let men pay more often..”. What they explain is that, in their opinion, men are somehow being deprived or emasculated if the woman pays (or offers to pay).
Each time I’ve had to politely explain that the reason I had offered to pay had nothing to do with gender – it was just a friendly gesture – more like a host wanting to take care of his guests.
Anyway, my new term for the day: “wallet-rape”. I like it, will use it, and can’t believe I hadn’t thought of it myself! Thanks for that 😉
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I just happened to come across this story in today’s ‘news’.
Basically, what can happen when a man expects his date to pay her share – and she doesn’t…
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/online-hookup-ends-in-court-stoush-over-firstdate-drinks/story-fnet0gly-1226716048169
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I’ve never really been on a date, and that used to upset me…but the strange thing is, my friends who go on dates are invariably the ones who can’t hold down a relationship.
I suppose holding out for the kind of treatment Helena wants will always make things harder though, I’ve always just gone and spent time with guys I like rather than wait to be chased.
My female friends look down on me, and think I don’t value myself highly enough, but they’re still single and I’ve got a husband, so I think they’ve got it the wrong way round!
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I always split the bill with friends. Why the fuck should it be any different with a woman I barely know?
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How do people get this confused?
I pay absolutely no attention to ideology in my romantic relationships. Why does anybody care whether their romantic relationships conform to some ideology.
Of course, my girlfriend is Filipina. I can’t recall her ever uttering the word “feminism.”
My late wife was also Filipina. If you tried to talk to her about feminism, she was likely to ask you to step outside for a fist fight.
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It’s odd that when feminist women go to such lengths to demonstrate how little they value and respect men, that more men aren’t lining up around the block for their chance at spending some quality time with them. I guess men just suck. Yeah, that must be it.
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The last paragraph is spot on.
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Reblogueó esto en Los españoles se merecen saberlo, por la Paz y la verdadera Igualdad en España!y comentado:
Add your thoughts here… (optional)
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It depends on the girl and the dynamic of the date to that point. I have dated women who insist on paying their 1/2 of the bill on the first couple dates, that turned into longer relationships.
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If you’re a young guy like me in the abysmal “dating” scene, you don’t spend more than a few bucks on your first date.
Why?
Because a huge amount of womyn raised these days are flaky, shallow and not worth your time OR money.
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“Am I A Bad Feminist For Wanting My Boyfriend To Pay For Dinner?”
Only if being a prostitute makes you a bad feminist.
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Oh, that’s awesome! The jury let the guy off!
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I was going to rant at length about this Helena creature before realizing that she just isn’t worth the time or digits and wasted server space (let me just say that the words “‘hood rat” apply here in bold letters, the laughably transparent veneer to the contrary [which fell off by the time she got to her sixth paragraph] nothwithstanding).
The good news? The Helenas of this world exude attitude like a road-killed skunk exudes odor, which means that most men give her a wide berth without even a single romantic thought coming anywhere near their tortured minds (what I said earlier about certain women causing E.D. even in anatomically correct marble statues of nude men).
My one question: what the hell was wrong with volcano boy? Either he was a momma’s boy who had never met a real woman before, let alone been romantically involved with one, or he had all the self-respect of a rusty car bumper. There is simply no other explanation for any man giving the likes of Helena Andrews anything other than a nasty, nauseated look and a middle-finger salute (I can only hope that volcano boy did one of those two things after ultimately breaking up with Helena [how the HELL did he manage to survive longer than the first date?]).
By the way, Helena, a very good friend of mine (a middle-aged spinster, just like you’ll be in a few short years) who lives in the Maryland suburbs of D.C. volunteers at the D.C. SPCA Shelter. She’s a dog person, but she tells me that the shelter is chock full of cats just waiting for a home. Let me know if you’re interested and I’ll put you in touch with her. Given that cats have attitude that matches or exceeds yours, you’ll be able to have your pick of the litter.
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Good grief, what a fucking cunt. That is all.
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Yes, so so wrong. Bought unsalted by mistake once. . . nasty nasty.
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interesting how it’s not considered “scorekeeping” when women/wives keep tabs on housework.
“I expect you to do 50% of the housework, but as for who pays for everything, well… let’s not ‘keep score'”
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You’re wrong because it is considered score keeping. Also, you say that as if men don’t keep score on when and what women do around the house.
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Only date if you are a gigolo.
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Hi JB,
I pondered this awhile before I decided I must respond. Now this I am sure will get me some hate responses on the blog, but here it goes. We (men) pay, because women control 100% of the pussy. Now ask any guy and we have been saying this since we are young. It is true, women will use Sex and control of that resource for all kinds of things, to get a date paid for, free dinner, as a reward for us being good.
When did we as men lose equality? I think since the beginning of time. Men want sex and a women it seems more then the women want men, at least at the purely sexual level. You see it on sitcoms, in which the husband/boyfriend is begging, denied, rewarded with a romp in the bedroom based on various behaviors. Does this set a good example I wonder for women everywhere? When did it become a gift to be bestowed versus something to be shared, that both parties want with equal measure?
The same goes for oral sex, now I love it, both giving and receiving, and I would never deny my partner the pleasure if she asks, and I do it as a regular part of foreplay or an end in and of itself. Now the opposite view is held in mainstream media and with most American women I have dated, it seems to be for reward or special occasions, such as your birthday. What gives here, why is sex used by women as a power play? This should be as I said a mutual want, an experience of sharing, giving, and just pure carnal lust and fun.
So to my fellow American males out there, date a European or other foreign woman, they are more open, tend to not use sex as a reward, and will even pay for dinner.
JB, that is why we pay, even when poles show we would rather split or have the women pay. We are in fear of not “getting some” at the end of the date.
Hows that for equality?
Ron
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First of all, I don’t know where the original author of this writing got her statistics. I wish people would cite them before they post. 69% of women expects this or 90% of men expect this. Where do you writers get this from?? It’s called sources. I think it’s an assumption for your own good. It’s 2013, not 1955 anymore where the men go out and work and the women stay at home before getting married. I think pretty much all of us know that’s the norm these days and I don’t need documentation for that. If I was married and had children, I would want to make sure I had the money to support her so she could stay at home and watch the kids (if this was something we agreed on) If a women ever expected me to pay for everything she would not be my first choice to date. If I had the money, I would do it. But remember as much as we may like or love someone, we have to take care of ourselves. If someone who I date expects me to take her out to a chain sit down food place like chili’s, applebees, ect every week then she must have some type of entitlement issue. I don’t want to spend so much on a women to the point where my car breaks down and I have to put it on a credit card because I don’t have the money to fix it. Especially in the first few months of dating when I don’t even really know her that well. I also want to be able to afford food other than packaged roman noodles and white bread. I’m a teacher, so if a women wants to have her boyfriend spend big bucks on her, then go out with someone that makes 80 grand a year plus. If a women would expect me to buy her everything, when she knows I don’t make grand amounts, then she has entitlement or self esteem issues and doesn’t see me for who I am.
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I’d have to agree about volcano guy. This seems like a shit test on his part to see what kind of woman she was. I can guarantee she gave out all kinds of gold digging and bitch vibes. That’s why the date played out the way it did. This is something I would have done to gauge a woman’s personality. Take her outside of her comfort zone and see how she adapts. If she’s going to be a whiny ungrateful cunt then a long term relationship with her would be extremely problematic!
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Haha, you can’t first say you’re a hardcore feminist and then demand he pay for your stuff. The poor man probably thinks you’d yell at him if he offered to help out, because it’s insulting your independence or something. Not fair to be pissed at him for not guessing your thoughts.
The fact that they don’t like the outcome of their own rules should tell them something. But no, they’ll just blame the man. If your own rules lead to an unnatural, unloving outcome, the problem is you.
Having said that, I don’t like stingy romantic partners either. They can be dirt poor, but they can’t be stingy and obsessed with their money and constantly feeling ripped off because I ate an apple they bought. Got enough of that from my mom’s second husband and it’s absolutely revolting in a person.
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Oy. So there is no convention.
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LOVE IT!
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I agree and disagree with JB. I think, in the dating/sexual marketplace, one must “know” their currency before the date. Hypothetically, if Tom Brady and Giselle go on a date, Tom Brady needs to pay. Giselle supposedly has more money than Tom, but at the end of the day, Tom needs to man up. Giselle is a super-model. Men will “pay” to be seen in her company. It is a fact. However, if you are Joe and Jill Schlub, then, yeah, work out what works for you. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a beautiful woman trading her sexual currency (her beauty, not trading fluids) in exchange for a man paying for a nice dinner. Beautiful women should use their beauty currency. Men use money currency. Fair exchange, in my book. Beautiful women need to learn youth and beauty are fleeting; better develop some skills and a pleasing personality to enhance the physical attributes. Men need to become successful if they want a chance at young beauties once old man syndrome sets in. It’s really that simple. If, in the mating/dating game, you find someone that floats your boat, lucky you. You will still grow old and unattractive. Hopefully you will be happy and not care.
The feminists and the MGTOW crowd want to pretend this exchange should be equal. It isn’t, and it never will be. Men want sex. Women want security. When a man doesn’t pay; it signals he offers no security. When a woman isn’t attractive, financially secure men are not interested. One must adjust their attitude to the marketplace that is at their disposal. Know your currency; that currency is not necessarily a money thing. It is very rare to see an unusually attractive wealthy man with an ugly wife, or a very beautiful woman with a financially poor husband. Yet, when asked, most people seem to think they are in the top 10% of attractiveness. If someone is having problems in the dating arena, it is because they over-estimate their attractiveness.
Biologically speaking, women do not have the sex drive that men do. Biologically speaking, men don’t get all gushy when they see a cute baby. (I nursed my babies. Gushy is not a metaphor.) This “problem” has been around for ever, Cosmo headlines aside.
Male species must show a female he is worthy of her sexual favors. I’m sure I will get flamed, but I still believe that. He should pay. Honestly, if women didn’t have a vagina, men would NEVER take a woman out to dinner. But once a mutual attraction is established, yes, yes, a woman should be paying her provider/manly man with all kinds of goodies, sexual and otherwise.
And definitely unsalted butter on a crusty French baguette.
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My grandfather and father raised me to be a Southern Gentleman. As such I have a very traditional understanding of male and female roles, dating, marriage and work. I will pick the woman who is interesting and attractive to me (based on very solid criteria) and I will pursue her. I will pay for ALL our dates. I will pay for virtually everything when you are with me. You will be treated with warm affection, dignity and respect. You will never have to wonder about where I stand in such matters. I will make it clear that I provide for you, protect you and love you if you are worthy of that. But I demand respect and love and effort in return. I want a woman who wants to be a mother, a wife and a full time home-maker at least until the kids are 8-9 years old. I will do everything in my power to give you a happy and wonderful life together. But I want a real woman, a feminine beauty, not some brash delusional feminist who wants all benefits and no responsibilities………I did everything just as described above and now have the most wonderful wife that I could ever dream of, two great kids.
The greatest illustration of male/female synergy is Fred Astaire and ginger Rodgers …. Him leading, her following, locked together, having fun, looking great, he delights in showing her off, she graciously LEDs him lead because she knows he is committed to her happiness
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Considering the popularity of the “slut-walks”, I’d say it doesn’t.
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When I’m out with my lady friend I always take the initiative to pay (lunch or dinner) unless she insists on paying. I pay as a way of saying “I like you”, “I enjoy your company”, and “I appreciate you spending time with me”. No strings attached or anything expected in return.
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Sorry. This isn’t the 50’s anymore. You want us to pay for dinner. You better spread your legs afterwards.
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In my world, you don’t pay for dinner.
I make dinner.
And you show some respect.
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Most women want men to pay because they truly are the cheapest creatures on earth. Ever see a group of women split a restaurant lunch bill? I have bought real estate quicker. This is also the reason and excuse women make when they say – whomever asks should pay. lmfao Of course they say this because they never do the asking, so hence they never do the paying haha. Nowadays dinner and a movie $100 plus easy. For about the same money I can have sex with a hot 18 – 22 year old off backpage.com, etc. So why would I or any man pay for the potential for sex with some douche bag gold digger, when we can pay and get guaranteed sex from a hot young babe haha!
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I pay for dates because that puts me at least one notch up from the last guy she went out with (in more ways than one) and it puts me in control of a date. That adds up to more fun for me at the end of a date.
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In my active dating life I never paid for early dinner dates. In fact, I’ve never gone out for dinner until we (who ever that might be) had connected and were dating, for however long that might be. And those were treats for us, not some bartering dance.
So, how did I succeed in having a long line of attractive, usually vibrant women in my (once upon a time) life? Simple: I asked them over to my place for dinner (or BBQ, or whatever seemed best.) I never, ever had any woman refuse, nor not come over. While I cooked, we talked, drank wine, got to know each other better……….and better.
And no awkward post-dinner “Now what do we do?” moments. My date was already in my home. Very few chose to leave at the end of the evening.
Same end result, a fraction of the cost!
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You cooked for women in your own home and managed not to rape them? You should write a book. That isn’t supposed to happen. Women should cook for you and then you are supposed to abuse them.
You are not doing patriarchy right.
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You are absolutely correct in every particular.
I do the same thing. The only exception is with family, or with a couple of long time friends, where we figure that it doesn’t matter if one pays more at some point, because the favor will returned sooner or later.
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Reading your comment brings to mind a question I had not thought of before: how it does it feel to be attracted to someone you despise so?
Feminists keep dating men, so I daresay they must have some kind of sexual attraction to men, but they also despise them utterly. I really can’t imagine how it’s possible to live with that kind of double-think.
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Why bother with that? Hire a prostitute instead, and you can negotiate exactly what you are going to get and how much it will cost. No guessing or games involved.
It seems to me that dates should be about something more than sex. Otherwise, they are just a ludicrously inefficient way to obtain what you want.
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As much as I loved this piece JB (new commenter here, actually feel like I should be more formal haha) I maybe the only person who thinks this, but I genuinely believe that men shouldn’t pay for ANY dates, not even the first one. Why should we? If the answer is ‘because you’re a man’ then that is sexist. By the way JB, I’m not addressing you personally when I say this, so much as I’m talking to people in general who have this view. I get the whole ‘make your first date cheap to see how she reacts’ thing, and it’s a good test to apply. However, I really don’t see what’s wrong with just going dutch most the time, and perhaps treating your girlfriend (or potential girlfriend) some of the time, and her reciprocating.
If my opinion means that I die alone, then so be it.
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It’s not a matter of dying alone, it’s a matter of not having sex. Might as well be dead!
I’m the guy who wrote the piece you quoted. The first thing that should be obvious, is that there are alternatives to the standard Buy Her Dinner, (Hopefully) Fuck Her Later routine. Going Dutch might be fine in college when your fellow, er, fella? students understand poverty. But not later in life. Outside of the cultural norms, um, normally.
I had a friend/girl friend for many years (yes, lots of confusion, overlap of roles, etc.) I was amazed when this independent, strong willed, well educated woman told me that she always believed that if a man bought her dinner or otherwise spent money on her, she was obligated to fuck him. (Oh, if I had only known some women believe that, ha ha….) So, by the time she would say “Yes” to a date proposal, she had already analyzed the man in terms of yes or no to have sex later. OTOH, it could be reasonably argued that since Laurie Jean loved sex, it was all just a game to be played since she “needed” it just as much as he did.
But the bottom line that men pay for dinner in hopes of sex is the same reason we pay for sex, if that option is available. It is in our DNA, we are the pursuers because we need to ejaculate, women are the pursued because they give us the means. And yes, we NEED to. If we don’t by sex with another or ourselves, our male bodies will do so all by themselves one night, sooner or later………..
The females of our species possess that altar at which we males (almost) all worship. And so we pay for dinner for that spiritual and physical fulfillment.
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Ok, maybe this was answered here and I just didn’t see it. “Personally, I agree that men should always pay for the first date.” and “Men should absolutely pay for the first date, and maybe even the second and the third and then it’s time to see if she has her priorities straight.” Wait, why? I mean, this is basically taking the same stance as the women she’s complaining about in the article, but just for a different reason. I’m curious as to what that reason is.
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“Men should absolutely pay for the first date, …”
Why? Why must men always be the ones to pursue and must always prove our value? I’ll feel that there is equality when women feel the need to pursue men.
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Maginas do not like to spent for the Ladies . Miserable and disgusting as usual !
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It isn’t the same…
Pursuing and risking rejection isn’t often a walk in the park, so lumping the cost of the date on top of that could seem unfair. However, a women with a sane attitude can understand and appreciate your efforts and has other ways to reciprocate. In fact, she finds great pleasure in taking care of her man. I don’t know about you but I think paying for fish and chips a few times to find out how isn’t a bad deal.
Would a woman like Helena Andrews be groovy enough bring you a beer and sandwich while you watch the game? No. Hell, you’d be lucky enough to be able to engage is such an activity in her presence without any scoffs, eye rolls or needle remarks because your attention isn’t on her.
Helena believes her simply being alive puts the “Bop” in the “Bop-shoo-wop-shoo-wop” and you should therefore recognise your privilege in getting to spend your money on her.
The stance is quite different with the “entitlement radar” switched on.
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I was quoting the exact same thing in order to question it, but in truth, in the absence of developing her statement, JB simply contradicts herself. –I can tell you why you should, however, and I don’t really have a problem with it. It is because it’s one thing for a woman to contribute *roughly* half in a relationship, which will happen over time with a good woman. Trying to bring the 50-50 aspect into the relationship right from the start, though, is asking a woman to step entirely outside her comfort zone very, very early. In effect, by paying for the first, second, and third dates you’re acknowledging that even a good woman may very well not be able to entirely rid herself of her cultural baggage. By paying you are choosing to keep your options open, and seeing where the women is.
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It is impossible for me to believe that Helena Andrews isn’t eventually going to trap some poor guy with minimal backbone, and that she will spend the rest of their lives destroying every ounce of confidence and self-worth he possesses. And she will hate him for it.
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This was freaking magical. Thank you.
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The difference is in the stance. Whilst JB has said they should, she hasn’t said that men who don’t should be avoided, where as Helena did. Not only should a man do so, but the absence of doing so was fatal to any potential relationship.
Add in to that that 3 out of 4 men feel guilty about accepting it (that is an interesting statistic to compare with the 44% who would stop dating if the costs weren’t shared – those groups necessarily have to overlap; emotionally not liking it, but rationally realising it is important), then it would seem a reasonable argument would be that women should let men pay not because the woman is “worth” it (is the man not? My, how close to prostitution we are getting…) but rather to put the man at ease.
Furthermore, in talking about how a man should act, she doesn’t do this from the perspective of “you should because I am owed” but from “you should because it allows you to see what type of a person she is”; the focus of her argument is on benefits to men from paying the first dates. I’d guess in that case the 1 through 3 (and being not expensive) is that you get a test for immediately superficial people, superficial but hopeful people, and those who won’t provide anything back to you.
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