Deeply disturbed man kills 4 men and 2 women and then himself, and is declared a violent misogynist because the deaths of men don’t count?

25 May

 

 Edited to add:  Initial reports that two male cyclists had been killed were apparently incorrect.  Rodgers killed three male roommates and Chris Martinez, and then killed two women in front of a sorority house, and then himself.  Five dead men, and two dead women seems to be the most up to date body count. 

 

By now you have probably heard of the Isla Vista Shooting, carried out by a disturbed young man named Elliot Rodger.  Elliot, who may have had autism and/or Asperger’s Syndrome, was living in a facility designed to help him address awkward social skills.  Elliot was part of an on-line community called PUAHate, a website devoted to revealing ‘the scams, deception, and misleading marketing techniques used by dating gurus and the seduction community to deceive men and profit from them.’ Elliot posted some very disturbing videos on YouTube in which he rails against the women who rejected his advances and muses about killing all the men on the planet except for himself.

 

‘If you could release a virus that would kill every single man on Earth, except for yourself because you would have the antidote, would you do it?

‘You will be the only man left, with all the females. You would be able to have your pick of any beautiful woman you want, as well as having dealt vengeance on the men who took them from you. Imagine how satisfying that would be.’

 

It seems that Elliot was an equal opportunity hate monger, torn between wanting to kill women and wanting to kill men.  Ultimately, when the bullets started flying, he killed 6 men and 2 women, and he injured several others, whose gender is not clear at the moment.

 

He also killed himself.

 

I’ll confess it came as a shock to me to see the actions of this deeply distraught, confused individual linked wholesale to the Men’s Rights Movement.  The Daily Kos took no time to proclaim Rodger was “influenced” by the MHRM, although it presents absolutely zero evidence that this was, in fact, the case.

 

The Men’s Rights Movement as they call themselves is a nebulous group of pickup artists and misogynists who’ve found each other on line, and are attempting to create a movement based around their hatred, disdain, and fear of women.

 

We know for a fact that Rodgers was influenced by this movement, as he is subscribed to multiple “pick up artist” or “mens rights” channels on YouTube. (For those here that don’t use YouTube, when a user subscribes to a channel, they receive notifications when that channel posts a new video.)

Except that all the links the KOS posts lead to Pick Up Artist sites, and none lead to MHRM sites.

 

Jezebel commenters are quick to repeat the same error, insisting that Pick Up Artists and Men’s Rights Activists are one and the same – something that would almost be amusing if they stopped to consider the number of married women with children who are part of the MHRM.  How exactly are we Pick Up Artists?

 

SPLC makes the same connection, again with no evidence at all.

alternatesteve2 • 15 hours ago

Aw, dammit. I had this terrible feeling, for quite a while now, that something like this would happen. And now it has.

 

Honestly, just EFF the “Men’s Movement”. Eff ’em all.

 

The Frisky follows suit, claiming that murdering 6 men and 2 women is “textbook sexist MRA (men’s rights activists) bullshit at its most entitled and violent.”  I appear to have been absent the day the textbook was issued.

 

Jessica Valenti proclaims that “misogyny kills”, blithely unconcerned with the fact that more men than women were killed.  Killing men is misogyny?  That’s an interesting interpretation.

 

While it clear to me that nothing more than ignorance and prejudice is informing these writers about the MHRM and MRAs, I wonder how the association between PUA and the MHRM came to be?  Because I came to the MHRM out of a concern for the legal and social equality of men and women, and not out of bitterness born from dating and interacting, I know very, very little about the PUA community.  I have encountered Chateau Heartiste, and have even written posts pointing out that some of his material is terribly mistaken, but I do not recall ever encountering any serious discussion of political and social issues that affect men and boys on his website.

 

And the most poignant irony for me is that Elliot was a member of an ANTI-PUA site, so not even part of the PUA community at all.  His fantasies included killing both men and women, but the focus appears to be stubbornly on how much he hated women.  He killed more men than women, and yet the focus is stubbornly on the female victims.

 

The only conclusion I can come to is that this is political grandstanding, with no evidence or facts to support  the assertion that Elliot was a member of any MHRM communities.  In a desperate attempt to paint the MHRM as violent and hateful, prominent media feminists are ignoring evidence and body counts to create an association between the desire for social equality and murderous rampages.

 

This is both sad and totally expected.  Sad that feminists will take the dead bodies of innocent young people and parade them as evidence for something that doesn’t exist and never has. Sad that media feminists will step over the bodies of dead and injured men to fuss and fawn over dead and injured women and then claim they are interested in equality.  Sad that feminists will mourn dead women but not dead men.  And sad that feminists will insist that a community of men and women working to ensure that both boys and girls, both men and women, are treated fairly and equally are the reason for Elliot’s tragic, deadly outburst.

 

The fact is that Elliot’s outburst does indeed highlight an issue of central importance to the MHRM – the inadequate, almost non-existent treatment of mental health problems for young men.  Socially, our treatment seems to be to wait until the tortured young man puts a bullet in his own head, and just pray that he doesn’t take innocent victims with him.

 

As a strategy for health, it’s not working very well.

 

Compare that to how we respond to women who are mentally fragile after giving birth.  We screen for Post Partum Depression and throw money and resources into keeping both the women and their children safe, because if we don’t do that, a lot of babies will end up dead. Women struggle with mental issues, too, and take it out on the innocent.  But rather than ignore those women and hope for the best, we create programs designed to identify and help them.

 

 

There was tons of evidence, especially on YouTube that Elliot was a dangerously unwell person, struggling with demons he likely could not understand and certainly could not cope with.  A society that had true compassion for men and boys would respond to hurting men like Elliot, the same way we respond to hurting women.

 

So in that sense, yes Elliot is linked to the MHRM and MRAs.  He is one of the men and boys we are fighting for.  If we had stepped in, Elliot would be alive.  His life matters, too.  If we had resources and means to assist young men struggling to integrate into our complex society, his victims would be alive.

 

Two beautiful young women lost their lives in Isla Vista.  But so did five beautiful young men. They deserve our compassion, too. They are more than grindstones on which to sharpen a political axe.

 

Because men are people, too.  Why is that so hard for some people to remember?

 

Lots of love,

 

JB

 

 

 

81 Responses to “Deeply disturbed man kills 4 men and 2 women and then himself, and is declared a violent misogynist because the deaths of men don’t count?”

  1. viredae May 25, 2014 at 14:55 #

    Hey JB, I think you accidentally put 6 men in the article but 4 men in the title, I’m guessing one of the two is true, so just for the sake of accuracy, I thought I’d give you a heads up before anybody tries and accuses you of “twisting statistics” (self-projection, anyone?).

    Like

  2. judgybitch May 25, 2014 at 14:57 #

    Thank you! Fixed it.

    Like

  3. Liam May 25, 2014 at 15:07 #

    It’s funny to me that they always try to link PUAs to the MHRM, but completely ignore the MGTOW community, which would seem to me to be the antithesis of the PUA sites.

    Now, if they DID talk about MGTOW at all, they’d call it misogyny (while at the same time extreme feminist sites love to tell us how much better off the world would be if women stopped having anything to do with men).

    But let’s be honest, I see a lot more MGTOW than I do PUA in the areas of the MHRM I frequent.

    But of course, that doesn’t play well into the narrative they want to tell, that we’re all just a batch of women hating men who are an endemic part of the problem. Because then they might have members of their community thinking for themselves and considering the world as shades of gray rather than as black and white, and they can’t have that.

    Like

  4. Liam May 25, 2014 at 15:08 #

    “woman hating” men. Poorly phrased, my apology.

    Like

  5. parodoxy May 25, 2014 at 15:17 #

    Hey! Just wanted to say, I really absolutely loved this article. I’m working on one at the moment about this very issue, specifically what the incident can reveal about modern masculinity. One thing I’m really struggling with is trying to get across that I think Rodger’s action do reflect some of the very worst aspects of red pill/manosphere/MGTOW thinking gone wrong, but that this is in no way reflective of the overall MRM. It’s difficult because I’m really worried that people will get the wrong gist, as you’ve pointed out has been the case so far in the media, and presume that any link between Rodger’s and MRM material means that said material was the motivation for the shooting. Why is it so hard to realise that, just like feminism, Men’s Rights contains elements which are more radical and are sometimes fostered by personal bitterness and prejudice, but that these don’t represent the overall goals or sentiments of the movement?

    Also I think that Rodger’s massacre is revealing about the destructive influences of aspects of modern masculinity, and as you pointed out, in that way it’s very much linked to the MRM. We teach young men lessons about how they need to tick certain boxes in order to be “worthy” of a woman’s affection, but when they believe they have met these criteria and women still aren’t interested, they feel confused and angry and robbed of their rights. It’s a serious failure of feminism that the movement has not addressed the destructive impacts such lessons have on men as well as women, and that’s why I think the MRM is so important – it tackles gender inequality from a perspective which doesn’t habitually put the welfare of women before that of men, as feminism does. Like you, I’m saddened and rather pissed off that out of ignorance and probably prejudice, people are using this tragedy to misrepresent the MRM and the majority of people who support it. Fantastic post!

    Like

  6. boteotu May 25, 2014 at 15:20 #

    Reblogged this on Blogger at the Edge of the Universe..

    Like

  7. Bob Wallace May 25, 2014 at 16:22 #

    In the video he is grandiose, devalues others, and shows hate, self-pity and envy. Considering how violent he got, that’s a sign of Borderline Personality Disorder. And people generally seek revenge out of feelings of humiliation; it’s a way to replace shame with pride. You can see this fact as far back as the story of Cain and Abel; in fact, that’s its lesson.

    Like

  8. Jim May 25, 2014 at 16:29 #

    “Because men are people, too. Why is that so hard for some people to remember?”

    Haven’t you heard? We’re just walking wallets. Disposable utilities. Misogynists. Haters. Oppressors. “Privileged” white males. The lies and vitriol coming from the crazed left is disgusting. They’re actually using this terrible tragedy to score political points! That’s just cowardly and evil.

    Like

  9. Bob Wallace May 25, 2014 at 17:22 #

    Privileged white male? The kid wasn’t white. His mother was Asian. The media is trying to cover up that fact.

    Like

  10. David Shackleton May 25, 2014 at 17:26 #

    Hey, JB, I have another theory about why someone who kills 6 men and two women is a misogynist. It’s simple, only women’s lives really count. The male victims just disappear below the radar, leaving the female victims as the only real victims, hence he must be a misogynist. I suspect its all unconscious, but I think that’s how the feminist mind works.

    Like

  11. Jim May 25, 2014 at 18:27 #

    I was speaking about men in general.

    Like

  12. girlwriteswhat May 25, 2014 at 20:27 #

    If he was BPD, then it’s hard to imagine he could be on the autism spectrum–the latest research indicates the two are diametrically opposed. ASD is a truncation of social cognition development, and BPD (and other PDs like narcissistic, etc) are a pathological overdevelopment of the same skills. It’s why you can diagnose autism in a 3 year old, but personality disorders and psychoses can’t be diagnosed until adulthood–you have to reach normal development and then “overdo” it.

    Given what I’ve read, his actions have less to do with the MRM (there’s no evidence as yet that he was even aware of it), and more to do with his father gifting him with “The Secret” to help him have a more positive outlook on life.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-imprinted-brain/201106/borderline-hyper-mentalism-unmasced

    If he was suffering from a personality disorder or psychosis, that’s the last book he should have been exposed to.

    Persecution complexes, narcissism, delusions of reference, magical ideation, are all part and parcel of personality disorders and psychoses. The author of “The Secret”, if she wasn’t a con artist, likely based the concept of the “laws of attraction” on her own delusions of reference–seeing coincidences as having some mystical intention, purpose or motivation. Bad things happen when you think bad thoughts, and good things happen when you wish for them hard enough.

    Delusions of persecution and megalomania are both evident in this guy’s writings and videos (they’re both intrinsic to narcissism). He is the “perfect” man, yet women are either intentionally not attracted to him, or they are defective somehow. They must be one or the other, because he’s doing everything the book told him he needs to do–he’s wanting it enough.

    Someone who is already prone to this way of thinking–that he is the center of the universe, therefore if women aren’t throwing themselves at him just because he wishes them to hard enough (megalomania), it means they are defective or “out to get him” (delusions of persecution, etc)–doesn’t need a bestselling book to tell him he’s right.

    According to his manifesto, he blew his entire savings buying lottery tickets and wishing. When he didn’t win, he ripped the book to shreds, as if it had lied to him personally.

    There’s a lot more basis for blaming that book and the ideas in it for what he did than in blaming the MRM. Regardless, I’m going to speculate that if he’d found the MRM and taken what we say to heart, he might be alive right now, along with a number of other people. But he didn’t, as far as I can tell.

    Like

  13. Wilson May 25, 2014 at 20:33 #

    The idea that men need to live up to women’s expectations is 100% mainstream, and Rodger’s personal theories that sex should be made illegal because it fosters discrimination is right out of the feminist bible: his principal connection to the MRM is that he is a man. “Men are pigs”, same old message for decades, now established as a fact

    Like

  14. Rick Bradford May 25, 2014 at 20:37 #

    Ignoring the 6 men and seeing only the 2 women victims is directly analogous to the media (and political) treatment of the Boko Haram atrocities in Nigeria.

    Like

  15. Bob Wallace May 25, 2014 at 20:58 #

    I’ve wondered about the Aspergers diagnosis. On the videos he is grandiose, self-pitying and consumed with rage and envy and hate – clearly he suffered from some sort of narcissistic disorder. People were obviously things to him, just Narcissistic Supply. He had an enormous sense of entitlement, too.

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  16. patriarchal landmine May 25, 2014 at 23:09 #

    feminists have never fingered themselves harder at mass murder.

    they get to blame men for non-existent “misogyny” once again, while fantasizing about this killer coming for them.

    Like

  17. The Beat Man May 25, 2014 at 23:14 #

    Reblogged this on Living in Anglo-America and commented:
    ………..

    Like

  18. John May 26, 2014 at 00:56 #

    Great article JB. Yep. A tragedy for individuals and humanity as a whole. Like all social issues they don’t get solved until people face the actual issues.

    Imagine if we all still thought that women were less intelligent than men. We would miss all the significant contributions they have made.

    And now we face the malice of discriminatory feminism.

    I truly love that at the vanguard of the fight against it is some very intelligent women, yourself included JB. I have the greatest respect for you.

    Like

  19. Tobi May 26, 2014 at 01:09 #

    I think this is an important factor too. I wonder how much of his actions can be attributed to his own racialized self hatred. For obvious reasons, it’s taboo to talk about the potential issues that interracial offspring may have ( the topic has always intrigued me because I will probably have mixed children of my own) and this seems to be at least part of the problem; having a taste of whiteness but not experiencing it’s fullness. He did talk about how he liked that his Asian side wasn’t too apparent. By scapegoating the patriarchy, we neglect other sides of the convo like white supremacy, internalized self-hatred and racial envy.

    Like

  20. Kas May 26, 2014 at 01:52 #

    I was just reading a roundup of all the Feminists’ tweets over at Twitchy. GAWD, it’s all about “ME”. Barely a nod to the actual victims, just how it affects them.

    Like

  21. Pierson May 26, 2014 at 03:44 #

    These things only become more clear to anyone who’s ever read his manifesto: http://www.scribd.com/doc/225960813/Elliot-Rodger-Santa-Barbara-mass-shooting-suspect-My-Twisted-World-manifesto
    This kid was an angry, joyless, misanthrope who had alienated everyone in his life, and only ever saw himself as the tragic victim of a world that was out to get him for no reason. Really, even if he had tripped into a tall beautiful blonde who loved everything he had and pledged herself to him after only a short conversation, lord knows he’d only kill her after his narcissism and general unpleasantness eventually drove her away. All-in-al, tragic as this whole situation is, it seems safe to say that he’s in a much better place

    Like

  22. FuzzieWuzzie May 26, 2014 at 05:12 #

    JB, Obsidian asked us to come over here and thank you for the interview. I’ll leave a link as your fans can’t get enough of you. For those of you interested in more on the original post, there is a great post on the subject over at Just4Guys and a superb comment thread.
    http://www.justfourguys.com/because-you-dont-know-sht-an-interview-with-janet-judgybitch-bloomfield/#comments

    Thanks again JB!

    Like

  23. C May 26, 2014 at 08:02 #

    I think it goes deeper than feminism honestly. This sort of thing seems to play into that monkey brain part of people that knows that a few men dying isn’t a big deal while the women dying is bad news (I’m talking purely continuation of the species stuff here.)

    But of course feminists, gun control people and others use the deaths of innocent people to prop up their bullshit as per usual. Incredibly distasteful.

    Like

  24. Spaniard May 26, 2014 at 08:02 #

    He should go to the hookers instead and have a good shag.

    That is what happens when prostitution is ilegal.

    Like

  25. C May 26, 2014 at 08:07 #

    I’ve noticed that the coverage on this is so rife with “what about MEEEEEEEEEEE” shit from feminists that most people I’ve talked to about this have NO idea that more men were killed than women; nor do they know he also talked about murdering men as well as women.

    Also related, and I thought you might find interesting, is this article on why people persist in believing bullshit: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/mariakonnikova/2014/05/why-do-people-persist-in-believing-things-that-just-arent-true.html

    It really shows that even when people get the correct information they will often carry on believing their own version anyway. So even when people hear about how this kid also talked about killing all men and how he killed more men than women, a lot of people are going to believe the “misogyny!!!” cries anyway. That and using dead people to prop up politics are the things that really bother me about the media’s coverage of this.

    Like

  26. Ferrum Itzal May 26, 2014 at 09:09 #

    The latter part really strikes a chord as I just finished a piece that touches on that point over on the J4G site.

    Women’s “learned behavior” is very damaging and often excused as some latent instinctual behavior when it’s really just what they’ve learned from books and movies. A friend of mine is, what I would think, a super-great catch of a guy. Tall, full head of hair, wealthy (owns 15 franchise stores) fit and trim….. but he has to go to hookers to get laid. Why? Because getting a girlfriend has proven almost impossible.

    I asked him why he was having such a hard time considering all that he’s got going for him, and he said, “I’m too tall, I guess.” He is 6’4″.

    Can you imagine a woman not wanting to be with a guy simply because he’s too tall – even though he’s fit, rich and all that? How many more boxes could this guy have checked off?

    But, to women…… who knows?

    Of course, it’s a blessing in disguise, really. Women that shallow and myopic would be more of a burden for him than anything else, and a wife like that could have ruined everything he’d spent a lifetime building.

    Like

  27. JShaft May 26, 2014 at 09:38 #

    That point of view on BPD certainly fits some of the facts of the illness. Not the best or deepest description of it, but it fits a lot more than Paul Elam’s arsehat misreading of the whole thing… I’d link it if it wasn’t the most profoundly narcissistic trash I’d ever read. Seriously, the big strong psychologist, hurt so badly by the mean little patients and their uncontrolled feelings. That, and they’re incurable *hint: bit wrong*.

    So, very, very glad to come across someone around these parts who isn’t on that bandwagon with him, kudos…

    I think the lesson we can take from the Feminist (over)reaction to this whole thing isn’t to go around pointing fingers, or making our own diagnoses based on, well, not nearly enough info to qualify as valid, even if we were actual psychologists (and please, don’t count the people who got their qualifications to become media whores…).

    The lesson is: Fucking awful shit happened. People died, including the person doing the killing. Beyond some stuff they wrote and a few videos, we just can’t know. Fuck, there’s a whole book about everything Jesus ever thought or said, and people still die every day over conflicting interpretations of what’s in the book. So, lets not play that game with this kid.

    Let’s call this sad, a tragedy, and one of those things that, statistically, will just fucking happen every once in a while when there are billions people around. With enough people around, Bronys become a thing. This is also a thing. There is no way to prevent either. I can understand the urge, and I share your pain.

    Who or what is to blame is a game we should leave to those comfortable looking like fuckwits later. Not enough info around as yet, and most of that from media known for their flawless fact-checking regimens :p

    Like

  28. JShaft May 26, 2014 at 09:43 #

    Sorry, still can’t find the button that just lets me post without replying… I’ll get there… In any case…

    Great little article in general. Still tried to pull things back to MHRM a tad at the end there, but possibly the most tasteful tragedy-pet cause linkings done so far, so kudos on that front. Note: This is not snark, just a healthy viewpoint on human psychology. Literally every news source seems to do this, and usually painfully blatantly. The fact that you kept it restrained is a credit to both your talent as a writer, and your sense of taste and proportion in relation to this tragedy.

    Fingers crossed that one day our culture promotes well reasoned thought above instant, emotive judgment.

    Guess there’s a big difference between judgmental and Judgy 😉

    Like

  29. Pilgrim of the East May 26, 2014 at 09:45 #

    There you can see how insidious is patriarchy with its misogyny – it doesn’t hesitate to sacrifice 2 men just to murder single innocent woman. Truly wicked!

    Like

  30. Ladd MaccAodh May 26, 2014 at 16:00 #

    Two things I want to touch on here.

    Why is it so hard to realise that, just like feminism, Men’s Rights contains elements which are more radical and are sometimes fostered by personal bitterness…

    One of the reason’s that a big chunk of the ‘sphere has latched onto the term “Red Pill” is because the experience has a similar impact. Finding out that so much of what you’ve been led to believe is actually wrong – well, it hurts, and there’s no one person you can point to as the liar-in-chief. The message isn’t one lie pushed by one person or organization; it’s a gestalt of all the messages boys receive growing up, each piece pushed by a genuinely well-meaning person. Whether it’s how to attract women, the privileges and burdens of manhood, legal rights, or whatever else, it’s a profound shock. Parts of the manosphere serve as safety valves for those feelings. A guy who just lost his family to some eat-pray-love impulse from his wife is naturally going to seem bitter. A 22-year-old virgin who just discovered that his fedora doesn’t make him classy is going to feel pretty embarrassed. The guy who tries to get help from women to understand why he keeps getting friendzoned, only to be told he’s evil and entitled for wanting to feel loved… you get the idea.

    Eventually, the men get over it, rebuild their worldview, and move on. But the process can be ugly. I’ve been through it myself. Going from “Women are all beautiful oppressed angels” to “Women are people, no more and no less” is a good and healthy step, but some guys (myself included) seem to need the intermediate step “Women are all filthy, lying whores.” That latter stage is the only that really gets attention, and feminists quite understandably hate it. What they fail to recognize is that for any mentally sound man, that step is transitory. You would think anyone so devoted to Gloria Steinem or Simone de Beauvoir should understand and accept a little transitory sexist hatred, but apparently not.

    We teach young men lessons about how they need to tick certain boxes in order to be “worthy” of a woman’s affection, but when they believe they have met these criteria and women still aren’t interested, they feel confused and angry…

    This is part of it. The male mind tends to be very goal-driven, and very willing to break down a process into discrete, replicable steps. It’s the mental process that put men on the moon, split the atom, and published the Mystery Method. You raise boys on Disney and the bastardized notion of chivalry that made it to the 21st century, you tell them to never hit girls, to be nice, or (in my own case) to be patient and wait for girls to realize what a great guy you are. Then the boy tries to follow the process, and is surprised when it doesn’t work.

    Take this Rodgers kid or his fedora’d ilk. Grew up believing that to get women (that is, to fulfill his need to be loved and feel attractive), one must be a “perfect gentleman.” Now, in his case, that gentleman apparently only included the physical trappings of the suave – nice car, a little world travel, good grooming – but the same lesson applies to guys who grow up calling women “milady” or studiously avoiding any hint of sexual innuendo in their conversation. These are guys who don’t have a clue how women think (reinforced by the pop-culture meme of women as mysterious, unknowable, fickle moon-goddesses). But they know they want female attention, and they’ve seen movies where certain behaviors achieve their desired results, so they ape that and hope for the best. But it doesn’t work. Rinse and repeat until feelings of betrayal set in – the process doesn’t work – and that’s not fair.

    So these guys seek out actual women and ask for advice – “Why can’t I attract women?” This is feminism’s chance to accept male needs and offer help; instead, the response is to scold them for feeling “entitled to sex.” Note that these are the same people who stage slut walks in support of women who feel entitled to flaunt their sexuality to the world. Speaking from my own experience, it starts to seem as though women are deliberately keeping the process hidden from you, the regular dude, out of pure spite (when the truth is, they really can’t put it into words, and are expecting guys to “just get it” or it feels creepy to them). Some guys double down on the “perfect gentleman” thing; I’m sure a psychologist could go on at length about narcissistic self-image or what-have-you, but I’m certainly not qualified. Or, they do what I did and look inward, try to figure out which false premises they’re working from. Maybe they find Game.

    I don’t think it’s a problem of masculinity, so much as a problem of lack thereof. A lot of guys don’t have the healthy role models and reinforcement to grow up with a healthy view of their own manhood; worse, they’re discouraged at school and by TV from ever doing so. Modern feminists complain at length about “toxic masculinity,” never acknowledging that pre-1970, the concept of masculinity was centered around the notions of personal integrity, restraint, the balance of pride and humility, and the care for and protection of others. A good man was gracious in defeat and magnanimous in victory (contrast feminism when it is successful in its goals).

    Done rambling, I don’t know how to gracefully conclude all that.

    Like

  31. desperada57 May 26, 2014 at 16:36 #

    Even though it’s illegal, it’s easy to get a hooker. This person felt like he shouldn’t have to pay a woman to be with him.

    Like

  32. Piroko May 26, 2014 at 18:01 #

    JB,

    Elliot Rodger’s story is the fourth oldest in the book.

    Literally. Genesis 4. Cain and Abel. Envy.

    It’ll happen again.

    Like

  33. Eric May 26, 2014 at 18:22 #

    I’ve read through page 39 of his manifesto. So far, my take is Rodger has an accurate assessment of the ugly truth of sexual dynamics. His observations and angst from childhood regarding sexual dynamics are consistent with mine.

    Red pill and Manosphere ought not to be blamed because Rodger was missing a key, essential, cornerstone element that runs through every part of the Manosphere: positive masculinity.

    It seems to me that first and foremost, Rodger needed to develop a concrete independent self-concept and sense of personal identity, which is what positive masculinity is about. While I see him described as narcissistic a lot in comments, learning to value one’s self independently is not the same thing as narcissism. Narcissism is relational and comparative, and through page 39 of his manifesto, I only see Rodger value himself relationally and comparatively, rather than by an independent personal identity.

    At the point a red-pill man makes the realization of ugly social truth, the issue is what to do about it personally. It seems to me Rodger went an extreme and abnormally bad route that was totally missing the positive masculinity element. That said, his choice may have been unavoidable regardless, and positive masculinity out of reach for Rodger, due to broken mental wiring.

    Still, I can’t help but wonder whether Rodger might have saved himself and his victims (who were mostly men) might have been saved had Rodger explored MGTOW, which is all about positive masculinity, or a hybrid MGTOW/Game path like M3’s, which seems suited to his situation. If his mental wiring was broken badly enough, though, there might have been no way for Rodger to escape his ending.

    Like

  34. JShaft May 26, 2014 at 21:04 #

    Well thought, well put, and most of all, you dodged any of the overreach that you could easily have been tempted to go for. Well put sir, well put.

    Me, I cracked the code one day myself, with the help of my profound mental illness (I’m getting better, don’t run!). Basically, after being a nice guy, regularly friendzoned while growing up a son of a feminist single mother in the age of the SNAG, I found exactly 0 intimacy with the opposite sex.

    Then, out of mentally ill desperation, I created a character. What began as a sort of comedic-performance art piece lampooning the kind of men I despised, quickly became my means of obtaining some semblance of love. In the long run, I don’t recommend it though, as it is an exercise in self loathing I wouldn’t suggest anyone should attempt to replicate. If love could only equal being adored for pretending to be the kind of person you despise, then I would have been okay.

    Still, I eventually found someone I could love and feel love from in kind. Only took me till I was 30-odd… Still, I wonder if I’d have made it this far as a virgin, or if I’d have killed myself. My only hope in that hypothetical is that I wouldn’t have killed anyone else on my way out.

    Like

  35. Eric May 26, 2014 at 21:16 #

    Right. He made clear he wanted sex and love, ie, he wanted a girlfriend. However, buying sex is not incompatible with learning how to attract a girlfriend. It could have been a step in his education. But he also seemed to have an aggrandized sense of what was beneath him, and he may have believed buying sex was beneath him.

    Like

  36. desperada57 May 26, 2014 at 22:22 #

    Does that count the guys he stabbed to death in his apartment?

    Like

  37. Sian Mann May 27, 2014 at 02:58 #

    JB. I just found your site via a radical feminist post, I am sure it is no surprise that feminists are taking aim at these responses as they go against their agenda. I might mention that I say radical because it was highly emotive, and mostly all conjecture – like Jessica Valenti’s article for the Guardian, which I talk about on my site also.

    I initially read this on AVfM, but I will ask this here as well. With regards to this comment you make “Sad that feminists will take the dead bodies of innocent young people and parade them as evidence for something that doesn’t exist and never has,” I wish to ask if you have seen some of the extreme responses in support of Rodger’s actions? Obviously, a lot of the focus (in media and online) has been on the misogynist ideology put forth in Rodger’s manifesto – I would agree with you, though, that he appeared to despise both men and women, though his hatred of men mainly spawned from the fact they could “get” women – but I believe there ought to be a spotlight on the toxic ideas from both men and women towards and aimed at both men or women. Misandry or Misogyny. Because there has been plenty in light of this tragedy, and is worth noting that that is evidence of a larger cultural divide that is harmful to society.

    I realise in any group there are extremists and radicals. Whilst I don’t think Rodger is a good starting point for feminists to discuss misogyny in our culture (because there were various issues going on with Rodger, and you cannot pick and choose if you use him as an example), but the reactions and comments that support Rodger is evidence that the misogyny you say does not exist and never has, is prevalent – on some level (which is open to interpretation just how much it is or is not) – in our society.

    Like

  38. Under your skin (@underyourskinny) May 27, 2014 at 03:06 #

    Excellent, the most sensible piece on the topic by far.

    It’s too bad many alleged MRAs are jumping on the bandwagon of assigning blame and finding easy scapegoats. “He was just a psycho”, nobody seems to care to see the bigger picture.

    This was an excelent opportunity to advance the cause of better mental health coverage for men and boys, but MRAs seem to be too shortsighted for that.

    I’m mad, and dissapointed.

    Like

  39. Sidh May 27, 2014 at 03:43 #

    Very well put sir…very well indeed.

    Like

  40. JShaft May 27, 2014 at 04:24 #

    Um, hate to be a prick, but have you read the diagnostic criteria, or just Paul Elam’s deluded rantings on the topic? because all those words you use are not diagnostic criteria, just subjective judgments no qualified, credible psychologist would dare make in educated, qualified circles. It doesn’t stop some trying to piss in the pool by ranting about their ill-conceived and scientifically null value judgments, usually based on experiences using an outdated, contraindicated treatment now known to be massively counterproductive and useless for the purposes of treatment.

    Really, it’s like listening to a middle ages chirurgeon blaming that the patient for yelling too much during the bloodletting, thus being an intentionally incurable prick.

    Seriously, do some research on your own, look up Marsha Linehan, and DBT, look at another way of describing BPD that actually provides perspective outside of the unfortunate incidental harm Borderlines do to those around them (what pricks, treating you so much worse than their other victim, that person they cut, overdose and end up killing more often than anyone not completely psychotic… yeah, you know, themself…)

    Seriously, I love hearing how people who kill themselves, cut themselves, overdose and end up in gaol regularly because they can’t cope with trauma, as they suffer from a mental illness related to, but significantly more harmful than PTSD, yeah, these people are so mean to others, so hurtful, so… Narcissistic… Unlike the person crying because they got hurt by someone who is more likely to kill themselves than anyone else you are likely to meet…

    Seriously, keep your scientifically null, unresearched, unsupportable, statistically invalid arguments filled with judgment, blanket accusations and highly emotional language out of the MHRM sphere. Take it where it’s still valued highly. You know where I mean…

    Like

  41. Tomppeli May 27, 2014 at 10:05 #

    I wonder if there is any way to find out how much of the violence and even murders in families and relationships is inspired by feminism. Feminism gives, after all, a license to hate men with its misandric propaganda. I’m sure it’s pretty common that a woman full of “justified feminist rage” attacks her son or husband/boyfriend.

    Think about somebody like “Big Red” in private quarters with a “misbehaving son or boyfriend”.

    Like

  42. Luke May 27, 2014 at 12:33 #

    And, hardly anyone mentions that just as men historically have a duty in wartime, etc., to physically defend women and children, so do women historically have a duty as a group to positively inspire men to peacefully productively achieve over the longterm. Anyone here think that even a fourth of U.S. women do that remotely adequately anymore? Certainly none of them were stepping up to do that for this guy.

    His point that women should not be the primary decisionmakers on whom they mate with seems so correct as to be nearly prescient, for those who neither know history nor how post-prosperity America is likely to end up doing things.

    P.A. Sorokin’s “Man and Society in Calamity” predicts the transition phase nearly identically as do harder-core men’s issues sites.

    Like

  43. Anon May 27, 2014 at 18:42 #

    Opposing feminism and the spawn of feminism is not misogyny.

    Like

  44. Eric May 27, 2014 at 18:51 #

    The reporting is that Rodger had long received psychiatric treatment, though. What would ‘better’ mean in Rodger’s case?

    Like

  45. judgybitch May 27, 2014 at 18:52 #

    I have no idea but THAT is the conversation we should be having

    Like

  46. Eric May 27, 2014 at 18:59 #

    Reading the manifesto, something that stands out is that Peter, Elliot’s father, apparently taught his son little to nothing about being a man. There doesn’t even seem to have been a birds and bees talk. Even had Peter been a red-pill father, he may not have made a difference given Elliot’s condition, but the lack of father-to-son guidance is striking.

    Like

  47. R Daneel May 27, 2014 at 19:22 #

    JB said: “The only conclusion I can come to is that this is political grandstanding,….”

    Ain’t that the truth. The MSM and Wymyn’s Rights bunch are going to wipe their feet on the obviously sick kid to make political scores and points much less the victims.

    This wasn’t about:
    NRA
    Guns
    Feminism
    Wymyn’s Rights
    Etc.

    This was a sad, sick Mucker who went ballistic before someone could intervene and get him help.

    Like

  48. Eric May 27, 2014 at 20:31 #

    Good comment. It stand out in Rodger’s manifesto that he wasn’t taught how to be a man. Most notably, it doesn’t seem his father taught him any traditional father’s lessons, not even about the birds and bees.

    It’s tricky commenting on Rodger’s manifesto because the formative experiences he relates are typical, to a point. Thus, his circumstances can be identified with by the many of us who’ve experienced something similar. But beyond that point, Rodger’s views and actions are abnormal due to his psychosis.

    The personal and social-cultural problem is real and the need to solve it constructively hasn’t changed. But Rodger was atypical, and his solution of mass murder was psychotic and destructive.

    Like

  49. Eric May 27, 2014 at 21:30 #

    GWW: “There’s a lot more basis for blaming that book and the ideas in it for what he did than in blaming the MRM. Regardless, I’m going to speculate that if he’d found the MRM and taken what we say to heart, he might be alive right now, along with a number of other people.”

    The feminists are spinning Rodger’s act by saying it might have been prevented by disqualifying the social problem identified by the men’s movement, whereas we’re saying that the social problem is real and urgent and denying it doesn’t solve it. Rather, Rodger’s act might have been prevented if he had been taught a constructive way to deal with the problem, eg, positive masculinity.

    Of course, with Rodger’s mental state, who knows.

    Like

  50. JShaft May 27, 2014 at 23:01 #

    Um, the overly simplistic answer would be “Something that worked. Something that that gave him a sense of hope and worth, and maybe steered him off the path he was sadly on”?

    Good, or better, is defined by results, not intentions. Me, I have a mental illness that people tried to treat since trying to treat mental illness began, and failed nigh 100% of the time. One year of specialised, proven therapy a handful of years ago turned an alcoholic, drug addled suicidal bum into a working father. The biggest difference, as it turned out? The person who developed the therapy HAD the illness, and listened to patients, rather than dogmatically blaming patients for not getting better.

    So, on some fundamental level, his treatment failed. Some important focus was missed, some blanks not seen or filled.

    I just hope someone who knows enough about his issues is motivated by this tragedy to work out just what went wrong, and tries to figure out how to fix it. Otherwise, all those people died for pageviews, and I’m man enough to be crying right now at the thought.

    Like

  51. Sian Mann May 27, 2014 at 23:40 #

    I believe you have misinterpreted me. There have been comments, whether they are from “online trolls” or not, whose words clearly show misogyny exists on some level within our culture (just as you could argue, and surely will, that misandry does).

    Like

  52. Eric May 28, 2014 at 00:23 #

    Right. The 1st question is whether he was receiving a reasonable amount of attention for his problem. It seems that he was. (But maybe he wasn’t.) If reasonable attention was paid, the 2nd question is whether Rodger was receiving effective treatment. The result says no. Given no, the follow-up and 3rd question is whether he was receiving the wrong treatment, standard treatment, and/or state of the art treatment. If it was standard treatment but not state of the art treatment, then the standard needs to change.

    If he was receiving the best care, then short of locking him away in an old-fashioned insane asylum (aka involuntary in-patient treatment facility) or sedating him involuntarily, extreme measures for which he may not have qualified, there may not have been more the system could do for him.

    I think mental health is an important area for MRA and the Rodger case should offer lessons. Although the failure is self evident, I just don’t know that Rodger’s case represents neglect. Questions need to be answered.

    Like

  53. JShaft May 28, 2014 at 01:40 #

    I completely agree that this case does in no way prove neglect. However, there is another possibility I can add to the table: That he may have been getting what is considered the best, most cutting edge treatment known or accepted currently, but it still doesn’t work.

    Most psych treatments are based on identifying and describing the issue(s), and working out how to effectively treat them all. So, there could be something missing from the best current model psychology has to work with, or there could be a problem with the way some aspect of his illness is treated that needs improvement.

    Remember, it took from at least 1938 to some time in the nineties for people to think there was anything you could do for BPD, an illness you can now basically “cure” without drugs. Maybe a new model needs to arise for the issues that consumed him and innocent people, maybe a new treatment of those issues, or maybe a complete rethink of all of the above. Science works best when it’s used to prove we don’t know some things, rather than when it leads people to assume we know everything :/

    In psychology, it’s even more important. Cutting edge, gold standard treatment for BPD in the 80’s resulted in the traumatisation of a generation of therapists and patients alike. Sometimes, we’re better off admitting we don’t know shit, and trying to redress that lack. Not sure if that applies to this circumstance specifically, but it’s certainly important overall…

    Like

  54. Beatrix May 28, 2014 at 02:39 #

    Thank you for writing this, JB. This happened at my school and it feels tactless to argue against the overwhelming amount of anti-male posts I’ve seen from my peers when it’s so close to home for everyone but it’s still good to see a perspective that doesn’t just blame ‘toxic masculinity’ and ‘male entitlement’ for this tragedy. It’s truly heartbreaking (though not remotely surprising) that everyone seems to be missing the point and co-opting the event to serve their own politics.

    Like

  55. j May 28, 2014 at 11:29 #

    That was a breath of fresh air amid all the politicized hate-mongering being thrown around in the wake of this. It’s nice to see someone analyzing the reactions to this rationally and compassionately, instead of gleefully taking the opportunity to advance an extremist political agenda.

    The way the media and political groups react to these types of events makes me wonder if they really regard them as tragedies at all. It seems like they’re more interested in getting tv-viewers and website clicks (and trying to lump their political opponents in with the mentally-ill perpetrator) than actually doing anything meaningful.

    Like

  56. theasdgamer May 28, 2014 at 14:27 #

    “He is the “perfect” man”

    You misunderstood Rodger on a critical point. He didn’t say “I am the “perfect” man.” He said, “I am a perfect gentleman.” Perfect gentlemen don’t engage women sexually or emotionally, which makes them unattractive. Women like to be engaged sexually and emotionally. Competent PUA sites all recommend that men act like cocky jerks, not like perfect gentlemen.

    Like

  57. theasdgamer May 28, 2014 at 14:37 #

    I don’t think that Rodger was a psycho–instead, he was an entitled brat following bluepill philosophy to the bitter end. He felt massively entitled, was vain, and got all his value from extrinsic factors like clothing, a car, money, and looks. Rodger looked and acted extremely effeminate, which was probably why women ran from him. The only PUA stuff he probably looked at was stuff that relied on extrinsic factors (which he had) and that stuff doesn’t work. Hence, he never looked at intrinsically-based stuff that Roosh, Roissy, YaReally, YOHAMI, etc. endorse–stuff that really works.

    Like

  58. Guber May 28, 2014 at 19:46 #

    Beatrix, thanks for speaking up. It is an expected reaction, juts like anti-constitution activists will abuse the case for their pet peeve feminists will for theirs. It is a good place to insert dissent and get people to think. So don’t feel “tactless” to do it. There is NOTHING tactless to speak the truth and correct the lies about what killed your friends in Santa Barbara. Anyone who’s trying to shame you into compliance to their political abuse of the tragedy should be ashamed of themselves, not you.

    Try to lean into the controversy in your home. I have done this and I have a reputation to lose, but after initial trepidation I find this experience more and more liberating. Remember that nobody grants you Liberty, it is you who must claim liberty. When it is about the liberty to stand up for truth you will experience another very real meaning behind the slogan “the truth will set you free”.

    Thanks.

    Like

  59. Guber May 28, 2014 at 19:55 #

    Now let’s not fail to acknowledge that Eliotts growing anger and hate which he so lucidly describes in his autobiography does have the focus on women. We should not be trying to hide it. It is telling that more men died than women, it says something about men, who even in the depth of evil madness and proclaimed hate for women seem to be incapable to actually harm women more than men. It is always the same.

    Also, let’s not forget to use this as a means of self-reflection. How did I cause this massacre by the way I am leading my life? How would I have caused? How would I have failed to do my part preventing it? A HUGE burden of this guilt should be on his father, and I think we men need to step up and point to the harm which incompetent men who have sold out their masculinity to some liberal feminist bullshit are participating in the creation of a murderer. Think of the horror of your own son becoming a murderer out of so much pain, and you, the father, have done NOTHING of much value to help this? You even kicked him out of your house when he needed you! You betrayed him to the police when you should have LISTENED to his cries for help!

    And the responsibility question goes to all men who collude in giving boys the impression that their value is measured by the validation from girls! It goes to anyone who is guilty of prematurely sexualizing boys.

    And the responsibility go to women who do indeed not own their shit. Tell confused boys they want a nice guy but don’t have the guts to express their true desires. While playing the eternal victim and pushing the guilt on men all the while presenting themselves as the ultimate goal for men, teasing to gain validation and wealth.

    Let’s not fail to boldly confront the very tough issues here.

    Like

  60. Eric May 28, 2014 at 22:44 #

    Context matters. Rodger focuses on women not in and of themselves but in a dyadic sexual context. His mortal enemy was man’s sexual nature and its social and personal derivative effects, which in practice were embodied in the “popular” and “cool” sexual women and men among his peers.

    Misogynistic doesn’t accurately describe Rodger except as part of the description coupled with misanthropic and misandrist. Rodger is more accurately described as anti-human sexuality.

    Like

  61. Eric May 28, 2014 at 22:59 #

    YaReally, with characteristic empathy and insight, commented on this issue in an exchange with Slothrop over at Heartiste’s:
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/the-psychosis-of-the-effeminate-male/#comment-567459

    Excerpt:
    “And what professional help would he get? Psychologists trained to try to force more Blue Pill nonsense on him that doesn’t jive with the world he sees around him? Throw him on some more drugs and numb him so we don’t have to deal with him? Advice from some psyche chick who has no idea what it’s like to be a man or some old psyche dude who married his high-school girlfriend and got divorced recently? Are those people going to help a kid who’s biggest frustration that he’s advertising to the entire world in his YouTube videos is “I don’t know how to attract girls”?”

    Red pill properly mentored wouldn’t be the whole answer, and YaReally doesn’t claim it could have been, but it may have helped as a key element in Rodger’s treatment.

    Like

  62. Eric May 28, 2014 at 23:03 #

    Agreed. Positive masculinity and inner game are missing in Rodger’s manifesto and videos.

    Like

  63. JShaft May 29, 2014 at 00:04 #

    Sorry, new to this arena and not totally conversant with all the terminology associated. In my experience, psychology has a tendency to, in practice, pull the blanket over its head and say “LA LA LA” when issues of sexuality enter the room. A psychologist would feel okay telling a patient it was perfectly valid to feel what they feel, so long as it’s not breaking the law. I’ve yet to see any psych papers directly relating to human desire, and what happens when our needs for love, human contact, and sexual intimacy are not met. In this guys case, he’s clearly self reporting symptoms from out beyond the deep end, well past the safe shoals psychology feels comfortable treading.

    Now, I’m not into turning this situation itself into a big “Which side gets to wear this” debate. Let the Feminists lose their shit, along with their friends, their colleagues, their flatmates, their partners. The only possible contributing factor Feminism had, directly and provably in this case: Feminism is anti-science. They actively war on those who dare ask questions they don’t like, even when the answers turn out to suit them. They bully news organisations into pulling stories on research. In this environment, while you work just a few buildings away from the women’s studies mob, are you gonna fight for that grant on studying human sexuality? Or just study something else, write a paper no-one will call you a rape-enabler over?

    Now, while we’re still trying to wash the stains of Freudian pseudo-science from the face of psychological care, we’ve ended up losing something. Now, as far as I can tell, human sexuality is somewhat taboo in scientific circles. We went from a model based on the horny, cocaine-fuelled ramblings of a classic “Dirty old man” to just ignoring sexuality altogether, unless said sexuality is politically “valid”.

    So, for all anyone is presuming that, because the kid talked about his lack of physical love driving him to this point, we can’t know. We haven’t the research, or the will to fund it. What we do have are the written and spoken words of someone desperate and insane enough to go on a murder spree. I know we all presume this gives us the “why” for this tragedy. But, remember, this is the testimony of a madman, one we can never get into an fMRI and find out anything of his thought processes…

    Once again, lets not play the Feminist game of directly laying the blame on one group of people. Shit, maybe more researchers and funding bodies need to sack-up and do the research they know we need, and just slap Feminism with the results every time.

    Like

  64. JShaft May 29, 2014 at 00:06 #

    Considering the tenuous links through his disappointment with PUAs, if you could do us all a service and not spruik your wares just now, that’d be, well, tasteful.

    Like

  65. Eric May 29, 2014 at 01:01 #

    Huh? You must be new to the Manosphere.

    Positive masculinity, called inner game by PUAs to match their core Game, is a basic, essential element common throughout the Manosphere. MGTOW, which is another area of the Manosphere that could have helped Rodger, is all about positive masculinity.

    As theasdgamer said, it’s telling that Rodger’s focus was all extrinsic. That positive masculinity was missing in his testimony is highly probative of the limited nature of Rodger’s engagement with the Manosphere.

    In terms of PUA, his lack of approach with girls is also telling. Approach is basic to the various PUA teachings of Game. That approach was missing in his testimony is highly probative of the limited nature of Rodger’s engagement with PUA.

    It doesn’t seem likely that Rodger used PUA specifically or the Manosphere generally to help him given the lack of basic, essential practical elements of either in his testimony. Rather, it seems more likely that he drew upon PUAHate to help articulate a worldview based on his personal experience

    Like

  66. Liam May 29, 2014 at 02:06 #

    OK, I’m curious now. My experience with “the manosphere” is largely limited to GWW and JB, but to my understanding, PUAs are largely antithetical to what MRAs and even MGTOWs are trying to accomplish.

    PUAs seem to view sex as a predator/prey situation, with men as the predator and women as the prey.

    My general impression of MRAs is that they are mostly a batch of people who agree with the CLAIMED (but absent in their actions) goals of feminism, which is to work to eliminate some of the outdated gender roles of society, but in the process want to add what feminism tries to suppress, that these gender roles are harmful to men as well, and stem from more realistic historical needs than some mythical “patriarchy” set up by all men to keep all women down. All of this while trying to keep men’s voices from being silenced by main stream feminism with words like “Mansplaining” and “Not All Men” campaigns.

    MGTOWs would seem to be to be the exact opposite of PUAs, PUAs having chosen to actively engage women, MGTOWs having recognized the extent to which the system is set up such that if you pick the wrong woman, she can screw you but good, and have decided to entirely AVOID engaging with women.

    Am I wrong? I’m a huge fan of GWW and JB, I enjoy and agree with most of what they each have to say, but that’s because it largely avoids both misandry AND misogyny.

    I’ve had large blow-out arguments with a number of my close friends recently, defending what I know of the MRM against charges that it’s just a batch of PUAs and guys whining about paying child support. Please don’t tell me I’ve been wrong.

    Like

  67. JShaft May 29, 2014 at 05:26 #

    Thankyyou so much! It sounds as though we both came into this whole MRA thing in similar ways, and to see your reply right after this was massively helpful. I’m still more than a little bit skittish about getting involved, and still wouldn’t call myself an MRA as yet. Probably because half my problem is being yelled at by Feminists for being evil, so in the short term, hardly an intuitive move to make :p

    Seriously though, from the way Eric put it, if what he’d said went unchallenged, I’d have had way bigger issues than I’ve been worried about. A “common core concept” based on some sort of pick-up routine, that’s got to be the only thing I’ve ever heard of that’s stupider and more offensive than “The Patriarchy”. Seriously, if that were to be seen as a universal foundation stone, then I’d tell you what I tell Feminists every day: “If you want to build something worthwhile, don’t start with bullshit for foundations.”. Seriously, the sooner people who try to limpet their at-best ethically ambiguous behaviors onto movements for positive change, the better off everyone will be. I wonder if that same need for mass support is what allowed Feminism to poison it’s own well with the deluded ravings of mentally ill trauma victims? That whole “I was raped, and so every woman was raped” mindset we now laugh (and cringe) at.

    Seriously, I don’t wanna be caught having to say “Not all MRA’s are like that” every time PUA’s say something objectionable in our name. The very fact that Feminism is desperate to link the two should be our first clue as to how badly this stuff needs to be held away. We tell Feminism to clean out it’s yard every day, and every day they point to that one patch of clean, weed free gravel on the drive and scream “Look! NOT ALL GARDEN IS LIKE THAT!”. We only get to laugh and deride that bullshit when we regularly clean our yard.

    On the plus side, I am sort of starting to see this movement as my yard, though one I share with many. Like in any shared environment, I need to check in every once in a while and ask “Hey, are you all okay with how I’m going about maintenance?”…

    So, I’d surely love to hear from those who share my views, or wish to critique them…

    Just sayin’.

    Like

  68. The Maleman May 29, 2014 at 15:02 #

    http://bennaddict1987.tumblr.com/post/87137583580/uk-links-to-petitions-to-change-the-definition-of-rape

    I didn’t look enough on your site to see an Ask box, so I will start with this.

    Like

  69. Martin May 29, 2014 at 18:24 #

    Imagine for a moment a destitute mentally ill suicidal homeless man going on a stabbing rampage in Isla Vista trying to kill as many ‘capitalists’ as he can, the ones he considers his ‘enemies’, what would have been the reaction of all those manginas, herbivores and cunts who work in the media?

    Most would have ignored the event and perhaps a few would have said this shows why we need to put more money into programs that help the homeless but NO ONE would have rushed to blame the groups that try to help the homeless get out of homelessness.

    Elliot Rodger was the emotional and sexual equivalent of this:

    and this:

    Like

  70. JShaft May 29, 2014 at 22:18 #

    Wow, I was with you through most of that post. Now, if you could manage to reframe the pointlessly abusive parts, I’d happily take a punch for you on the front lines. Some of my best friends are “manginas, herbivores and cunts”. Kinda makes it hard to clearly focus on who is the problem here…

    That, and actually giving feminists actual evidence of their supposition that MRA = Woman Hating Troglodyte makes it really hard for me to join your cause.

    Seriously, sometimes I wonder if this movement wants or needs those who can keep a civil tongue in their head, or aim their rifles at the right fucking trenches *sigh*

    Like

  71. Ndoki May 30, 2014 at 17:31 #

    I guess that would mean the iceberg that sunk the Titanic was also a misogynist since it killed hundreds of women.

    I can’t believe the lengths people will go through to twist things to suit their own premeditated ideals.

    Like

  72. Eric May 31, 2014 at 03:33 #

    Liam,

    That’s a big question. First, it’s not true that MGTOW and PUA are opposites. They have differences, bigger or smaller one depending on who you talk to. For some, MGTOW and PUA-side Game are stages of their self-actualization journey.

    This won’t give you all the answers, but for a 1st step, this is good as any a place to start:
    http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/2014/01/praxeology-truth-of-game.html

    The Manosphere is very diverse with many voices, some bombastic, some pedantic, some thoughtful, some original, some derivative, some offensive, some welcoming, some all of the above depending on mood and topic. The Game/PUA side is diverse. MGTOW is, if possible, even more diverse since MGTOW, by definition, is individualistic. Then you get MRM, complementarians, others. You get hybrids and crossovers. It’s a rich community. It can change your life.

    Like

  73. Eric May 31, 2014 at 03:47 #

    Liam,

    I forgot that Keoni Galt actually wrote a group of “praxeology” posts that week. I suggest reading all of them as a 1st step:
    http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/search?q=praxeology

    Like

  74. Elliot Rodgers Retribution June 1, 2014 at 12:01 #

    I am genuinely thankful to the owner of this web page who has shared this fantastic post at at this time.

    Like

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Deeply disturbed man kills 4 men and 2 women and then himself, and is declared a violent misogynist because the deaths of men don’t count? | Manosphere.com - May 25, 2014

    […] Deeply disturbed man kills 4 men and 2 women and then himself, and is declared a violent misogynist … […]

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  2. Deeply disturbed man kills 6 men and 2 women and then himself, and is declared a violent misogynist – because the deaths of men don’t count? | - May 25, 2014

    […] http://judgybitch.com/2014/05/25/deeply-disturbed-man-kills-4-men-and-2-women-and-then-himself-and-i… […]

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  3. What can we learn from Elliot Rodger? | parodoxy - May 25, 2014

    […] got his dick wet’, the fact is that Rodger’s actually did seem to know about game. He reportedly subscribed to a number of PUA websites, but also to an anti-PUA website called PUAHate, where he posted comments about how game was a lie because it clearly wasn’t working for […]

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  4. Regarding the MRM and the UCSB Shooting | Think MGTOW - May 26, 2014

    […] http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/24/1301671/-Elliot-Roger-Gunman-in-California-Mass-Shooting-wa… […]

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  5. The “bill of rights” may stop good care for the mad. | Dark Brightness - May 27, 2014

    […] The fact is that Elliot’s outburst does indeed highlight an issue of central importance to the MHR… Socially, our treatment seems to be to wait until the tortured young man puts a bullet in his own head, and just pray that he doesn’t take innocent victims with him. […]

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  6. Elliot Rodger: California shooter’s actions may be singular, but his thinking was not | IndepthAfrica - May 27, 2014

    […] Human Rights Movement (MHRM) have been particularly quick to counter this suggestion. In one such article which repeatedly calls the shooting spree an “outburst”, the author – who is […]

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  7. Sadly, No! » Pay No Attention to the Monster Behind the Curtain - May 29, 2014

    […] many people have pointed out, Rodger killed more men than women, including […]

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