Mother Jones leaps into the fray. Feminist commenters are not happy.

11 Aug



Some very interesting coverage of the #womenagainstfeminism movement, which continues to swell and gain supporters by the hour.


Mother Jones unironically points to the women in the Men’s Rights Movement (which is philosophically tied to #WAF) as a major force driving the conversation. Feminism: we care about everyone equally, but we will only listen when the correct genital-haver speaks. #seemslegit


The Washington Examiner makes the same observation: “Wait – there’s women? Oh, let’s listen to them, then.”


And even Margaret Wente at the Globe and Mail has to agree that women are making some excellent points about misandry and the hatred of men and masculinity that is at the rotten core of modern feminism.




Men need women to speak before they get anything other than mocking, insults, derision, ridicule or outright dismissal. That’s why there is a Men’s Rights Movement. And it’s also why feminism is watching it’s own death.




They always speak louder than words.


Lots of love,




193 Responses to “Mother Jones leaps into the fray. Feminist commenters are not happy.”

  1. The Real Peterman August 11, 2014 at 16:31 #

    That’s one big reason why it’s such a good thing that so many women have joined the men’s movement. Thanks!


  2. Jason Wexler August 11, 2014 at 17:06 #

    With due respect Janet, the Margaret Wente piece was the most brilliant, cogent and succinct description and take down of feminism I’ve yet seen.


  3. judgybitch August 11, 2014 at 17:07 #

    I agree! I quite liked it! But it still took women speaking out for Margaret to notice misandry.


  4. m August 11, 2014 at 17:54 #

    As good as this is, it’s frustrating to see that this — once again — only became a thing when suddenly women were involved. Men apparently do not have a say in this. We are pointing this shit out for years now. Our opinion does not count, we are dismissed, just because.

    Sorry for being so whiny but what ever happened? Again, frustrating. Somehow.


  5. TheSharpeful August 11, 2014 at 18:10 #

    This is exactly what bothers me the most about this whole ordeal.

    Men have been feeling the misandry and outright sexism from feminism and they have been calling it out, men have been pointing out that feminism is a victimhood religion promoting a culture based on hysteria and false information, and what happens?
    Not a single fuck was given. “stop crying” “why do you hate women” “you’re an angry man aren’t you?”

    Then we get a few girls holding cardboard signs making selfies and suddenly everyone goes “they do have a point” “yes, there is alot of misandry in feminism” “yeh feminism is a victim culture”.

    Don’t get me wrong, I adore those girls, I adore the message they are disseminating, I respect them immensely for going against the political correct and thought police of today and standing up for logic, reason and quite frankly… what’s right.

    But this whole thing just leaves a confusing taste in my mouth…. Like going down on a beautiful girl that hasn’t washed in a few days.


  6. David Sutton August 11, 2014 at 18:31 #

    As Diana Davison has said in her latest vid, the women of WAF will have to do more than just hold up signs in a selfie. As welcome as they are, it will take a long time for trust to again be established.


  7. Jack August 11, 2014 at 18:56 #

    Maybe it’s my ignorance. Maybe it’s my optimism. But perhaps once society wakes up and values what men have to say on the subject of gender then we won’t need to have women, like our dear JudgyBitch, validate what we’re saying before it is taken seriously.

    Maybe then our words can stand on their own merits.


  8. JShaft August 11, 2014 at 19:09 #

    When the men in the movement sound like Paul Elam, and the women sound like JB and girlwriteswhat, well…

    Between that, and Feminism warning for 50+ years that “The Patriarchy” will one day attempt to drive us all back into the gender dark ages, is it any wonder they got to demonise the MRA’s? If Elam was the public face of atheism, he’d be writing articles about sacrificing children to Baal, just for the pageviews. WAF is proof that the whole “We need to act like fuckheads so people will notice us” shenanigans were as stupid as could be.

    I, for one, am really glad that AVFM needed women to get through to the mainstream. I hope it hurts them daily 🙂


  9. m August 11, 2014 at 19:11 #

    Well i don’t know what the future holds, it’s hard to make predictions (for example: who knows what technology has up it’s sleeves?) but right now it seems that not much has changed. Whatever is being said — it needs female approval. If it doesn’t make a woman nod it will not be taken seriously. And i don’t see how women (female allies, if you will) ever can help with this.

    No, us men need to do this on our own. We need to gather. And the first thing we need to do is throw women off the pedestal we put them on a long time ago and truly treat them as equals. Everything else will fall in place then. Feminism will at least be dismantled once this is accomplished.

    That being said I am still grateful for the work of judgy, GWW, typhon an all the other badgers. 🙂


  10. JShaft August 11, 2014 at 19:12 #

    Oh, and I still don’t get the last paragraph of that Globe and Mail article, where she still comes up with some justification for Feminism, based on some perceived sexualisation culture that harms girls more than boys. Because sex is always worse for girls somehow, and they’re all better off waiting till they’re 30, or something… But boys getting assau… I mean hit on by teachers, they should be high fiving? *headdesk*


  11. Jason Wexler August 11, 2014 at 19:39 #

    I get what your saying, my criticism of that point of Wentes comes more from my sex positive pov in which I would say we arent becoming hypersexualized, but rather emerging from a period of hyposexualiztion.


  12. JShaft August 11, 2014 at 19:51 #

    Mostly with you here… Both states can be normal for individuals, and when society decides one is good and the other is evil, people suffer…


  13. JShaft August 11, 2014 at 19:56 #

    *shakes head* I love it when people say “Shit be like this, but if we yell really loudly, rather than work within the confines of reality, then…”

    Shit’s like that. You can cry about “right” and “wrong” all you like, but “Is” is gonna kick you in the arse, and “Isn’t” is gonna poop on you while you’re unconscious.

    Or, to translate: Demanding reality line up with your morality is a mug’s game. I can demand they change the rules of chess all I want, I’m still going to have a shitload more luck winning chess if I just learn to play chess.

    I’ve been saying since I arrived on the scene that MRA’s need to either have women do the talking, or at least not have PR nightmares like Paul Elam constantly shooting us all in the foot, then men’s issues might get somewhere. Now it’s happening, and all the men complain? Seriously, these problems are way more important than your pride. Now, stop being a dick about it and get on board. Just because your fave band got popular, that’s no reason to diss the new fans…


  14. Goober August 11, 2014 at 20:35 #

    Yup. Nailed it.

    The MRM has always had a problem with shrillness, hyperbole, and writing “satirical” snuff pieces, instead of actually staying on point and debating the topic logically. Elam is merely the worst offender. He’s done far more harm than good.

    When I first got involved in the MRM, I got called a NAWALT all the time, because I said it all the time. You cannot proceed into a fight effectively unless you “know your enemy” and in this case, the “enemy” was second wave feminism, not “women”. But far too many in the MRM had ben hurt, or abused, or used terribly by A woman, so they improperly assumed that the problem lay with ALL women, not just the ones who had declared war on us. It’s the failure of the MRM, and it has always rubbed me the wrong way.

    I know that NAWALT for a fact. I know several women who are NOT “like that” at all, and I knew that they would be great allies for men everywhere if they weren’t alienated first by the MRA’s telling them that they are all solipsistic children with no cpacity for love, devotion, or loyalty.

    There is a huge problem in the MRM with men who have no capacity for introspection. They will claim on one hand that an abused woman is responsible for her own abuse because she stays with the man who abuses her, but then deny vehemently that the reason that they’ve always managed to shack up with horrible women is because they are horrible judges of character and ar attracted to awful people.

    No, they argue… it’s because ALL WOMEN ARE SCUM. Not because I’m an abjectly terrible judge of character that loses all ability to think as soon as some nookie waves in front of my face. Oh HELL, nooo!


  15. That_Susan August 11, 2014 at 21:48 #

    That’s a good article. I think I’ll start reading more Mother Jones. And this just goes to show that the world, in general, is moving into a more open-minded phase.


  16. The Real Peterman August 12, 2014 at 00:01 #

    Eh, it was alright. It didn’t go nearly far enough.


  17. The Real Peterman August 12, 2014 at 00:02 #

    Here’s a Jessica Valenti update:


  18. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 00:11 #

    I hope I’m not overstepping any personal boundaries by offering you a big hug…

    You nailed a lot of my perceptions there, and in far fewer words than I could ever manage…


  19. Eric August 12, 2014 at 00:11 #

    At minimum, women activists are needed to establish the point that modern feminism hurts women and modern feminism hurting men hurts women.


  20. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 00:16 #

    Yeah, feminism’ll never go for that last part, unless “hurting men” is seen as some sort of victory. We’re the oppressors, don’t ya know, so anything that hurts us is clearly the right thing to be doing.

    I tell ya, for people who hate “objectification”, they’re pretty fucking good at it…


  21. Jason Wexler August 12, 2014 at 01:15 #

    Wouldn’t have been succinct if it had.


  22. Jason Wexler August 12, 2014 at 01:28 #

    Every civil rights movement has at its genesis needed dominate group surrogates to speak for it, to show that there is something bad and more importantly real happening to good people. Coming from the gay community, I know that the love gay men have for divas like Judy, Bette, Joan and Madonna, which is often confused for appreciation of beauty or talent, but is really about them standing up and saying I love my gay friends, don’t fuck with them.

    That’s why we need Janet and Karen and Alison and the women writing columns that Janet has been linking to; they can pierce the cognitive dissonance around women being victims and men being oppressive.


  23. Jason Wexler August 12, 2014 at 02:00 #

    I was just looking at the Woman Against Feminism tumbler, and I noticed that everyone seems to be responding to what Wente described as the radical post modern left wing man hatting type of feminism. Being the most active member of Woman Against Feminism, are you aware of any people criticizing what Wente described as mainstream whiny rich women feminism?


  24. Paul Murray August 12, 2014 at 02:45 #

    Paul Elam sounds like Paul Elam because men have tried sounding like Warren Farrell and it just hasn’t worked.


  25. Paul Murray August 12, 2014 at 02:47 #

    Because you have to focus on what’s important, and not trivial things like (oooh, I dunno) male suicides.
    Remember: women are the primary victims of war. That’s why war is bad.


  26. phil martin August 12, 2014 at 04:21 #

    Did not know you were a Canuck until today. Good show. Never had a bad day in Canada. Loved Ottawa in June. Keep up the good work. You and Straughn are getting under the fems skins more than CH, Rollo and the boys put together. About time.


  27. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 05:06 #


    The profound lack of anything approaching logic in that sentence… Really, it shows that no-one is immune to nodding along to soundbites with no meaning.

    Because X failed, this justifies Y is so demonstrably stupid, and not just when we’re talking about Paul Elam shooting himself in the foot.

    Seriously, I wish I didn’t need to point this out, but that “logic” applies equally to this concept, without any sort of straw-manning or reductio ad absurdum: “I had no luck picking up women by asking them for dates, so now I just show them my cock on public transport.”. Seriously, fuck being rational, if your argument doesn’t stand up in court, then find a better one.

    Seriously, this seems to be the go-to line when anyone points out the counterproductive, cheap, stupid, unhelpful things this person posts regularly, seemingly without any self-awareness (seriously, watch him look like a bumbling idiot in the Vice interview).

    My point is: These issues are more important than some sort of hero-worship. Just cuz he inspired you, or others, that doesn’t mean he’s ultimately worthwhile or helpful. Remember, Some of the great Feminist icons of misandry and bile have their own cults. In defending stupid, counterproductive statements by someone who says them just to piss off the opposition and placate the angry, ex-wife hating base, you are no better than Feminists justifying Andrea Dworkin and all her lovely works…

    Seriously, if you can’t be any better than the evil you’re fighting, maybe it’s time to brush up on your more popular Nietzsche quotes and maybe not reflect the abyss quite so much…


  28. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 05:08 #

    Yeah, cuz your hero Paul Elam works wonders for male suicide, doesn’t he? *headdesk*

    I guess keeping it real is worth more than getting anywhere…

    Must really feel fantastic to realise women got us there so quickly and easily, with a minimum of stupid 🙂


  29. MC August 12, 2014 at 05:19 #

    That was not a takedown of feminism. She views Gloria Steinem, the same woman who said “a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle,” as magnificent, witty, passionate, etc. But she opposes misandry? No, it sounds more like cowardice to me.

    What her piece amounted to was “yeah, we were totally different back when we were doing things, but these new young modern feminist are definitely about the misandry and victim culture.” Who the fuck do you think they learned from? Who did they get their information from? Which generation of feminists are actually teaching them?

    In fact they are a better example of what feminists are because they are the first generations to actually be raised and taught by these so called, older non man-hating feminists.

    All I see is feminism finally being called out by women, and misandry getting actual mainstream attention, and all the old hags are suddenly quick to disassociate themselves from the movement, and abandon their children, the feminists that they created.

    Of course you don’t want people looking at what you did as part of any misandry or victim culture, since misandry and victim culture is now being recognized, and called out, by women (WAF), so it’s just a retreat into “we were so different, direct none of your blame at us, we were so necessary for you, we were totally loving of men, we recognized when men were victims, we didn’t view women as always the victims and men as always the perpetrators, we were so pro-marriage and equality, we did not look down on women who were home-makers, and we were against unfair family courts, so direct no negative feelings towards us, we accept no responsibility and blame for these ” modern” feminist actions, and have no idea where this ” modern” feminism came from.”

    Feminism gets exposed by a growing group of women, and they quickly take off their clan uniforms and act all “what seems to be the problem officer? We don’t know anything about any misandry round here. Why we haven’t participated in any misandry at all. But we heard that that there new group has been spreading such ideas, we don’t know where they got it from, surely not from those women’s studies courses we’ve been teaching, or those books on feminism we’ve been writing.”

    Like a racist parent claiming he has no idea where his daughter got the view that all black people are criminal rapists after she has been exposed for her racism.




  30. Chad_Nine August 12, 2014 at 06:32 #

    And Janet isn’t a PR nightmare? She’s been on what might be called an embarrasing nightmare rampage on twitter, antagonizing feminists and slinging out insults and accusations left and right.

    Except I don’t blame Janet. Hell, I laugh at her antics, and I don’t blame her or Paul, because I’m sick of walking on eggshells in order to appease the uptight dickholes who don’t give a shit about men’s issues.


  31. Master Beta August 12, 2014 at 09:42 #

    Men aren’t allowed to complain. Man Up!!
    It’s a catch 22


  32. Master Beta August 12, 2014 at 09:49 #

    Male MRAs do need to shut-up.
    It’s not right, but it’s the reality of the situation. Maybe one day we’ll live in a world when a man’s complaints will be met with compassion rather than ridicule. I doubt that will ever happen though.


  33. That_Susan August 12, 2014 at 10:55 #

    Very well said! While it certainly grabs attention if a feminist wears a shirt saying “I bathe in male tears,” or if a female men’s rights activist says stuff like, “Children of single mothers should have been aborted,” it doesn’t serve any real productive purpose to grab that attention by alienating a lot of people who might otherwise have been better able to really listen to what you had to say.


  34. Spaniard August 12, 2014 at 11:20 #

    Do not trust WomenAgainstFeminism. It is just another Horse of Troy. It is a giant NAWALT.

    *Notice how that anti feminist woman says: “Some of the best people I met were MEN and some of the worst people I met were FEMINIST”. She says “feminist”. She does not say “women”.

    *The Manosphere is becoming something “cool”, and women are fashion victims. They just want to be into whatever is “cool” for the season (to them it is just a season, not an steady philosophy, so short-sighted they are).

    *Women have no personality neither ideology neither philosophy. They just go with the flow. If Magda Goebbles would survive Herr Joseph and she would move to USA and she would meet a handsome and rich Jew, she would marry him and embrace Zionism.

    *Women want to drag men into the conservafeminist prision: marriage, children, debt, working like a bloody Chinese, etc. And then cheating on hubby, nagging, blaming on him about everything, divorcing and raping him on Court.
    Or not divorcing them but keeping hubby in an eternal state of slavery, cuckoldness and fear, until the end of his miserable life.
    “I used to think that worst thing in life was ending up alone. It is not: it is ending up with someone who makes you feel alone”. Robin Williams (RIP).

    *In order to do that, women have to manoeuvre. The ultimate manoeuvre is WomenAgainstFeminism.

    *Remember: “The manipulated male”, by Esther Vilar is MAINLY about conservafeminism (some about progressive feminism too), but mainly conservafeminism.

    *Esther Vilar is one of the few anti-feminist you can trust. And JudgyBitch too. Why?: Because they are not only anti-feminist. They are terrible mysoginists too. They both hate women deeply and they both are very attractive and femenine the same time. That is a reliable fact. My opinion.


  35. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 11:22 #

    Good for you Chad. Let me know just how many female rapists that puts in prison, will ya?


  36. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 11:34 #

    Um… I could be well off in my presumptions, so I’ll just ask, for clarity’s sake: Please clarify “for trust to again be established” trust from whom of whom exactly? I’m honestly hoping I don’t get it…


  37. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 11:34 #

    Look up, can you see the deep end from where you are? Cuz you’ve always hung close, but I think you just went off it…


  38. Spaniard August 12, 2014 at 11:42 #

    Which deep end?


  39. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 11:53 #

    Sorry, forgot English is not your mother tongue…

    There’s a phrase for being… malade? Loco? Bugfuck insane? We say “He’s gone off the deep end” to indicate someone is so far from reality they couldn’t find it with both hands and a map…

    You seem to be in the general vicinity of this place…

    To clarify, I’m stating that just about everything you say and seem to think about women kind of makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit. Not because it’s about women, but because it’s about any one group of humans that you don’t know all of. You are statistically irrelevant, as is your life experience.

    I just want to go on the record that any single label or description that you are included in is something I will fight to deny having any association with. In fact, the first person to suggest you and I have anything in common, besides being carbon based life forms, well, I may well just set them on fire, in order to discourage others…


  40. Spaniard August 12, 2014 at 12:25 #

    Bugfuck insane?
    Well, if you say so… 🙂

    My experience with women?
    I have been with about 110 prostitutes. Is not experience enough? And most of them have been fantastic experiences. I always say that the only good women are professionals.

    Changing topic: I have just seen your countrywoman Kitty Flanagan. She is funny and -in an strange way- attractive. I mean: she is strict, surly and bossy. She lights up my masochistic lower instincts.
    But I think she is misunderstanding “sufragism” with “feminism”. Or “civil rights” with feminism.
    Can you see? all this semantics struggle is a digress for the real enemy: women. Not such a “flatus vocis”: feminism.


  41. TheSharpeful August 12, 2014 at 12:28 #

    Phew… someone’s been drinking some of that poison kool aid eh?


  42. Ferrum August 12, 2014 at 12:59 #

    So, you acknowledge that there’s a language barrier that can be causing problems, but that’s not stopping you from outright insulting the guy just because he says something you don’t like?

    You take everything he says literally, but then you threaten to kill people that try to associate the two of you somehow. If we’re taking things literally, and not reading deeper than the words on the page, shouldn’t we also take your threats seriously?

    Or should we just accept that the only stuff that should be printed is the stuff that you’ve read and vetted? That would be the safe thing to do. I don’t want to get set on fire just because I offended you.


  43. That_Susan August 12, 2014 at 14:27 #

    Too bad she didn’t realize she could easily get more info. on this by googling, which is what I just did out of curiosity. There’s tons of stuff I’d google about that I wouldn’t ask my Facebook friends, or Twitter friends if I used Twitter. But it does seem kind of extreme that people’s give her such a backlash about a simple question. I’d just say, “I don’t know, Jess, why don’t you google it?”


  44. The Real Peterman August 12, 2014 at 15:00 #

    That’s more like it.


  45. The Real Peterman August 12, 2014 at 15:02 #

    I don’t get it. Is that supposed to be an embarrassing statement by Janet? Because I don’t think it is.


  46. Critical Eye August 12, 2014 at 15:57 #

    I think if you read this blog, you’ll find JB has a great takedown of mainstream whiny rich women feminism. Start here or here


  47. Sisyphean August 12, 2014 at 15:59 #

    Theoretically, that should never happen. Men who complain aren’t men, ergo they can’t be speaking for Real Men(tm) who never feel pain, don’t ever let on that they’re suffering (if in fact they ever do), and shoot unending money from their wallets like a pinata.


  48. Sisyphean August 12, 2014 at 16:15 #

    I agree with both of you. I post a lot about how men and women are different within their sexes, not just different from each other. Just because there are fewer female math geniuses doesn’t mean there aren’t any at all. Just because there are fewer male Art majors (90% female these days) doesn’t mean that guys can’t do art or teach or be a nurse. Outliers exist, the challenge is how to both accept their existence so that a driven competitive woman can do whatever career she wants (which I feel has been largely achieved) while also recognizing that a plurality of women might actually prefer being a homemaker to being a CEO and that that might actually be OK. If we don’t strive for a balance, then all we can do is watch as the pendulum gears up to swing back, hard. And it might not even be our civilization doing the swing.


  49. judgybitch August 12, 2014 at 16:27 #

    It wasn’t even me who made the statement. And my PR skills are so bad all I’ve managed is BBC, ABC, Vice, Mother Jones, Washington Examiner, HLN, The Today Show, SUN Media…. some other shit too. Imagine if I understood how to use social media for PR? I’d be killer, then.


  50. Jim August 12, 2014 at 16:42 #

    What I do enjoy about this so-called WAF business is watching the feminists get their panties in a twist. That is exceedingly entertaining.


  51. Jason Wexler August 12, 2014 at 16:54 #

    There are no links in there.


  52. Jason Wexler August 12, 2014 at 16:55 #

    But I know JB has written about it in the past, I was wondering if WAF was aware of that problem as well.


  53. Goober August 12, 2014 at 17:14 #

    But they’re listening now, aren’t they? Why do you care how that came about? I don’t understand the wailing and gnashing of teeth here. That it took women-as-allies to get feminists to listen to male grievances is as obvious as the breaking of dawn to me, yet so many of you guys act like it is wrong…


    Why does it surprise you that a movement that is dedicated, in large part, to talking bout how much men suck wasn’t interested in listening to men complaining about that? THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT MEN. Why did you think they’d give two hot shits about your grievances?

    Why does it surprise you that it takes women being our allies and speaking to this movement on our behalf to get them to listen?

    I’ve been saying for years that the MRM has been shooting itself in the foot by attempting to alienate ALL women with this stupid, idiotic NAWALT business.

    Because NAWALT is totally and 100% true: NOT ALL WOMEN ARE LIKE THAT! How is that hard to understand? Especially since you’re posting this on a blog written by a woman, who has devoted a massive portion of her life to defending you in this battle?


  54. Goober August 12, 2014 at 17:17 #

    They don’t hate objectification. They hate it when women are objectified. Just like Skinheads don’t hate violence and crime, thy just hate it when blacks are violent and criminal.

    Second wave feminism is a supremacist movement. You will understand it much better once you accept that you aren’t dealing with a civil rights movement at all, so much as you are dealing with an ugly, gender-based version of the KKK or the Skinheads.


  55. Goober August 12, 2014 at 17:23 #

    “Do not trust WomenAgainstFeminism.. It is a giant NAWALT.”

    Jeebus flogging Cripes – THAT’S EXACTLY THE POINT, SPANIARD! Because it’s TRUE. Not all women ARE like that. Again, it constantly comes as a shock to me that people who post on THIS WEBSITE, a website written BY A WOMAN, are still running around spouting off about NAWALT and how NAWALT is totally wrong.
    Judgybitch is NOTHING if she is not proof that NAWALT.
    WAF is NOTHING if not proof that NAWALT.
    So learn! Expand and grow, and understand that the urge of men like you in the MRM to alienate women as the “other” and as the “enemy” is the urge of self-destruction! Women are our allies, not our enemies. FEMINISM is the enemy.
    “*Notice how that anti feminist woman says: “Some of the best people I met were MEN and some of the worst people I met were FEMINIST”. She says “feminist”. She does not say “women””
    Because she, unlike you, gets it. She is not silly enough to think that 50% of Earth’s population (a cohort of which she is a member) is the problem. That’s just stupid. She understands that the problem, and our enemy, is feminism. Not women. Not even equality. But this second-wave, supremacist movement that feminism has become. That’s the issue.


  56. Goober August 12, 2014 at 17:25 #

    “*Women have no personality neither ideology neither philosophy. They just go with the flow. If Magda Goebbles would survive Herr Joseph and she would move to USA and she would meet a handsome and rich Jew, she would marry him and embrace Zionism.”

    Says the guy writing on the website of a woman who has gone on CNN defending him.

    Dude, I can’t stress this enough – you’re writing this on the website of a woman. You understand that, right?


  57. Goober August 12, 2014 at 17:32 #

    No. Insulting him not because he said something he didn’t like, but because he said things that were fucking insane and offensive.

    Don’t fall into the “you can’t criticize because everyone is entitled to their opinion” trap. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn’t make it correct or beyond reproach. It can still be stupid or wrong or offensive, and if so, others have every right to call him on it.

    Jshaft has an opinion, too, and his opinion is that Spaniard going off about how Goebels’ wife would have married a Jew if it benefitted her was crazy as fuck and offensive. I happen to agree, but I’d be defending him even if I didn’t.

    Spaniard strikes me as one of those guys who got raked over the coals by a couple of women in his life, and probably now thinks that all women are exactly like the horrible bitches that he got raped by.

    he’s makng the same mistake that feminists make, and a lot of MRA’s are the same – just because YOU are a horrible judge of character, and shack up with terrible representatives of the opposite sex, does not mean that all members of that gender are like the POS’s that hurt you.

    The world is full of shitty people. Skinheads use shitty blacks to prove that all blacks are shitty. Feminists use shitty men to prove that all men are shitty. Radical MRAs use shitty women to prove that all women are shitty.

    They are all wrong.


  58. realityforever August 12, 2014 at 18:12 #

    *Sigh* that’s nice.. so women have finally decided 30 years later after Feminism achieved everything it set out to do that these past 30 years have been nothing but a toxic hate movement that has stripped men of ALL of their rights in the area reproduction, marriage, women, children- all of it. So they decided that they aren’t going to proactively push the dagger in men’s faces anymore.

    But as far as I can see, rape laws are becoming even more insane pushing for new laws wherein a female can retract her consent at any time even months later and men have NO defense against being accused of rape. Women have now nailed the final nail in the coffin. I am never having sex with any women in the U.S. ever again and there are millions and millions of men EXACTLY like me, intelligent enough to know exactly what kind of danger they’re in having anything to do with women at ALL.

    So here’s the end of Feminism finally, so when is alimony going to be abolished? The end of child support, or at the very least the end of jail time if a father loses his job? When are men going to be able to have any say over anything to do with reproduction? Getting reamed in divorce court? False accusations of rape are now even ‘fashionable’ and even when that cute 22 year old at Walgreens winks at me, all I can think of is that she just wants my sperm and a monthly check each month in child support. Why? Because the legal system ALLOWS her to!

    So I can pretty much forget about marriage or any other kind of relationship with a female for at the very least for the next 20 years because it is a MINEFIELD that certainly no women would tolerate if script was flipped.

    And you know what? I don’t think it is ever going to get better for men legally – we are never getting our rights back because much of it has to do with GOVERNMENT control. And a corrupt and for profit court system run by crooked attorneys.

    And finally women aren’t becoming any nicer.. I meet a LOT of women everyday because of the line of work I’m in and if anything they’re getting even MORE obnoxious, toxic, spiteful, catty, shitty, passive aggressive, vindictive, fun as diarrhea, boring as paint drying, pushing their ‘fat acceptance’ on us, extremely butch and bisexual and never accountable for anything EVER. So first women in the U.S. would have to make themselves attractive again to men for us to even really want to be with them in the first place and THEN, THEN there is the mountains of Hell on Earth legal minefields to dig out. It looks pretty hopeless that things will change anytime in the remainder of my lifetime.


  59. Spaniard August 12, 2014 at 18:39 #

    Sorry: “Goebbels” not “Goebbles”.
    Goober, JDShadt is right: I am fucking insane. 🙂 Thanks for the support anyway. And Ferrum, too.

    But, anyway, JudgyBitch is different because she is a women hater. Not only anti feminist.That is her reliable point.

    Well, you are right: I had a harmful relationship with a couple of cunts before I took the “proto red pill” in the early 2000’s (the red pill before the Manosphere, by reading Vilar and Weininger).
    Then I met some other cunts but, as a redpiller, I could enjoy the experience. Is like treating with snakes when you are already a snake trainer (like this Arabic guys with the flute and the cobra).

    About Magda Goebbels and the hypotetical marriage to a Jew: I am saying nothing new. You can find that description on female nature (they adapt to and adopt an attitude “ad hoc” to the man they are with, and nowadays women are with a lot of men in a row, soy they adopt a lot of different, even contradictory attitudes, in a lifetime) you can find that description on female nature in Rosseau´s works.
    And it is completely Darwinian: women are not made to be rebels and keeping a point of view, for the sake of the children. they have to be extremely conventional and chamaleonic.


  60. That_Susan August 12, 2014 at 18:51 #

    I read the entire article you linked to and I can’t see where it says that a women can rescind her consent to sex months later. Did you read that someplace else? Also, I have a friend who pays child support to her ex-husband, who was awarded primary custody of their child. I realize things are very different from state to state in the U.S. — but I’ve observed that in my state, fathers who want to stay involved in their kids’ lives, and even want to try for custody, seem to be getting their day in court. Maybe everyone should just move to Missouri.

    As far as consent to sex, it probably would be an awesome thing if more college guys just decided that it wasn’t worth it for them to jeopardize their lives, reputations, and careers by having sex with anyone they don’t completely trust.

    I’m really happy that our justice system has, as its cornerstone, the premise that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. That said, no one accused of a crime should ever just rely on a court-appointed lawyer. I’ve heard one horror story of a case where a man spent 18 years in prison when there was an eyewitness waiting to testify that it couldn’t possibly have been him, but the court-appointed lawyer never bothered to call her to the stand. She finally got to testify all those years later and he was exonerated. I’ve just googled to try to find a link to this case, but there are so many similar cases that I don’t have time to search for that specific one.

    At any rate, if you actually get a lawyer who’s working for you and not the courts, I think it’s very unlikely that you’d get convicted of a crime you never committed. And I’m glad about this, because even though I have two daughters, I’d honestly rather risk a rapist going free than an innocent man having his life taken away from him.

    So a false conviction is very unlikely, especially since you get to have your case reviewed by a jury of your peers, but the real pain about rape accusations is they just hang in the air and virtually everyone wonders if you really did it. Plus it’s a real pain and waste of your time and money if you DO have to pay a lawyer and all that, even if you’re not likely to end up getting convicted. So it’s just easier to be super particular about who you sleep with in the first place.

    It’s rather interesting that we may end up with a culture where women have to persuade men to have sex with them, and demonstrate that they really are trustworthy (or “spongeworthy,” for anyone who remembers that old Seinfeld episode).


  61. That_Susan August 12, 2014 at 18:55 #

    What do you mean about women pushing “fat acceptance” on you?


  62. That_Susan August 12, 2014 at 18:59 #

    “But, anyway, JudgyBitch is different because she is a women hater.” I have sometimes gotten the same feeling, but keep hoping she’ll eventually admit that she’s just going to the other extreme of the feminists, to grab attention and make people think.


  63. Spaniard August 12, 2014 at 19:07 #

    Off topic:

    I have never been antisemitic, neither anti Zionist. I have always admire the culture Jews left behind in my country (the country they still call “Sefarad”) after they were expelled in 1492.
    I have always admire Jew thinkers such Weininger, Freud, Ayn Rand, Wittgenstein, etc.

    But all what is happening in Gaza is revolting me and I started searching things on the Web. Then I met Dr. David Duke´s videos.
    I think he is bloody well right.

    So, I thank God I live in a “Jew free” country since 1492. No more than 10.000 in a population of 46 million. And most of them are open minded and very critical about the State of Israel.


  64. Jason Wexler August 12, 2014 at 19:35 #

    There is a community of physicians, scholars and others which are skeptical of obesity epidemic hysteria, both from a perspective of the science of obesity being very questionable, and from a perspective of the hsteria being… without perspective. A group of overweight and obese people many of them associated with radical feminism discovered this communities research and criticisms, twisted and misinterpreted it and declared that criticizing people’s (women’s) weight or body is a form of unjust bigotry and discrimination, and is or at least ought to be verboten. Part of their new vocabulary includes, calling themselves the “fat acceptance” movement, which fights against fat-phobia and fat shaming, because you know fat is just as good and beautiful, don’t you know. The problem with the fat acceptance movement isn’t that there aren’t good reasons to question the conventional wisdom about obesity, but rather they are assuming that the opposite conclusion must be true with no evidence, which is actually worse then exaggerating and misrepresenting the extant and inadequate research, which is what the obesity epidemic hysteria crowd is doing.


  65. Spaniard August 12, 2014 at 19:48 #



  66. Goober August 12, 2014 at 19:59 #

    That’s an easy one.

    There is a popular meme going around that basically deigns to dictate to men how they should be. It uses shaming language, and presumes that women, not men, should have the ability and the right to dictate to men what they should do, how they should act, and what they should prefer. It generally starts off with the words “real men…” and then ends with a description of something that the woman who wrote the meme feels like “real men” should do.

    You’ve seen them. “Real men don’t hit women.” “Real men don’t rape.” So on and so forth. Not that I disagree with the sentiment of some of them, I just find it peculiar that these people have decided that they are the arbiters of what a “real man” gets to be. It is a little offensive, because it presumes that they have a right to dictate to me what I should and should not do.

    Kind of like wearing a seatbelt in my car – I would never go drive anywhere without putting it on, but it rubs me the wrong way that my local government says that they will punish me if I don’t. It isn’t any of their damn business. Same with this meme. I don’t hit people, and so I don’t need to be reminded not to hit people, but it rubs me the wrong way that these people deem themselves qualified to tell me that I shouldn’t hit people if I want to be a real man, as if they are the deciders on the definition of manhood. It’s all about seeing men as things to be controlled rather than as sentient individuals with their own wants and desires.

    The “fat acceptance” part of this springs from the fact that there is a huge group of women out there using this “real men” method to shame men that prefer thin, trim women. “Real men like curves” is a perfect example, and I know that you’ve seen that out there. It was on a billboard outside my hometown not long ago. The idea that women should get the final say in what men are “allowed” to find attractive is absolutely fucking offensive. Imagine if the tables were turned, and men were putting up billboards telling women what they should and should not find attractive, and using shaming language in the process, to boot. “Real women make their husbands a sandwich!”

    Get the point? It’s just fucking offensive.


  67. Goober August 12, 2014 at 20:02 #

    Oh, God, here we go… This thing is going so far off topic now that we won’t even remember where it started by this time tomorrow.

    I do have to say that I love how your statement contradicts itself:

    “I have never been antisemitic,…

    …I thank God I live in a “Jew free” country”

    You recognize how those two statements existing together in the same comment is kind of like mixing oil and water, right?

    Kind of like if I said ‘I am not really racist, but I’m really glad that no blacks live in my neighborhood”

    Dude, you’re an anti-semite. Own it.


  68. Goober August 12, 2014 at 20:04 #

    Basically, they are saying “you men don’t have a right to your own preferences in what you find attractive. You will find us attractive whether you like it or not. You don’t have a say.”


  69. Jason Wexler August 12, 2014 at 20:19 #

    That’s certainly true of the meme spreading feminist hijacked version of fat acceptance. The vague others I referenced in my first response to That_Susan, also called themselves fat acceptance activisits, who were arguing however valid the obesity epidemic may be, it isnt necessary or effective to treat fat people like subhuman scum worthy of abuse and scorn. Some of them adopted the lass shrill position then feminist fat acceptance that they were o.k. with their being fat, not that everyone else had to coddle them.


  70. Goober August 12, 2014 at 20:38 #

    I have a friend who pays child support to her ex-husband, who was awarded primary custody of their child. I realize things are very different from state to state in the U.S. — but I’ve observed that in my state, fathers who want to stay involved in their kids’ lives, and even want to try for custody, seem to be getting their day in court. Maybe everyone should just move to Missouri.

    He is one of the lucky ones. I don’t think anyone in the MRM is reasonably arguing that every single father, all the time, without question, gets screwed in the family court system. Presenting one, or even multiple examples of men who didn’t get raked over the coals proves nothing. I do believe that there are inequalities in that system that need to be fixed, which is what the MRM is trying to accomplish.

    For instance, my friend has been married for 8 years. For 6 out of those 8 years, he was not the primary earner in the family. In the last two years, he eclipsed her by a very small amount of become primary earner. By a VERY small amount.

    They have joint custody, but he has to pay her nearly a thousand dollars a month in child support, because he became the primary earner. He still has the kids 50% of the time, and has to support them while they’re in his house, as well as paying a grand a month to his ex-wife (who, I’ll note, originated the divorce by sleeping with another man and then serving him with papers 4 weeks later), even though they make the same amount of money.

    The reason your firend made out so well is because she didn’t accuse him of abuse, or of abusing the kids, or any number of other ruinous things women can do without any punishment whatsoever, like, for instance, false rape accusations…

    As far as consent to sex, it probably would be an awesome thing if more college guys just decided that it wasn’t worth it for them to jeopardize their lives, reputations, and careers by having sex with anyone they don’t completely trust.

    You’re blaming the men in this situation? Really? Don’t blame the men here. That’s the problem. When pro-life people say “all a woman has to do is keep her slutty legs closed!” that’s beyond the pale of polite discourse and those people are shut down as bigots and assholes. But when men try to claim reproductive rights, or worry about being falsely or retroactively accused of rape, that is always the response – “it’s THEIR FAULT for screwing women that they don’t completely trust!” In other words “Men need to keep their zippers zipped, but saying women need to do the same is WRONG!”

    My buddy trusted his wife of 8 years, too, but she banged another dude and left him on a whim. It takes years to develop the level of trust you’re talking about, and even then…

    I’m really happy that our justice system has, as its cornerstone, the premise that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

    It does not, de facto, in rape cases. Especially on college campuses, where the college itself has no such requirement. Essentially, RUMORS of rape accusations get men blacklisted all the time, kicked out of colleges, unable to get into another because of the scarlet letter R (for rapist) hanging over his head. Consider rape shield laws, where men have been denied their constitutional right to confront their accuser, and then have literally gone to prison without even knowing who it was that they were supposed to have raped. Imagine! How could you possibly set up a decent defense when you don’t even know who is accusing you?

    Also, those Duke Lacrosse guys, since that is a good example, are going to be surrounded by a cloud of suspicion for the rest of their lives. Be honest – would you date one of them? Hire one of them? Be seen in public with one of them? You will say that you don’t have a problem with that, but you know deep inside that your first reaction was hesitance… because what if they really DID rape her, right?

    At any rate, if you actually get a lawyer who’s working for you and not the courts, I think it’s very unlikely that you’d get convicted of a crime you never committed.

    Then I’m afraid you are terribly naïve. I do not mean that as an insult. Do this one thing for me. Google “The Innocence Project” and then try not to feel sick to your stomach for the rest of your life. Some estimates are that as many as 15 to 20% of our prison population is made up of people who are wholly innocent of the crimes they are serving time for.

    And I’m glad about this, because even though I have two daughters, I’d honestly rather risk a rapist going free than an innocent man having his life taken away from him.

    So would I. But that isn’t how our justice system works right now. If you really feel this way, then I think the Innocence project is going to make you physically ill.

    So a false conviction is very unlikely, especially since you get to have your case reviewed by a jury of your peers,

    Incorrect premise. As I’ve said.

    but the real pain about rape accusations is they just hang in the air and virtually everyone wonders if you really did it.

    Forever. For the rest of your natural life. The first thing I think about whenever someone mentions Kobe Bryant is “did he really rape that girl?” It’s involuntary. But it is still there. He is still stalked by hecklers who shout “rapist!” everywhere he goes.

    There are other things that you haven’t considered. If I were arrested for rape, I would lose my job. PERIOD. Whether I was guilty or not. The time away from work while in jail trying to make bail, the time in court, and so forth, not to mention the reputation of the company. My boss would be forced to replace me. Most men would be in the same situation. If I were a college student, the chances are better than 80% that I’d be black-balled and kicked out of school. So no job, no education.

    Plus it’s a real pain

    Spending two years of your life defending yourself against an accusation that could put you in prison for 25 years, all while tryng to find a job that will hire you in spite of that, so that you can pay for your ruinously expensive lawyer is a “pain” to you? I call it more of a “life altering horror.” But to each his own.

    and waste of your time and money if you DO have to pay a lawyer and all that,

    Waste of money? How about “financially ruinous?” How about “cost four times more than a 2,500 square foot house in a good location on 5 acres?” How about “you will be paying thousands a month for the next 30 years to pay all of this off?” Never retire. Never be able to pay your kid’s way through college. Oh, yeah, not be able to afford your child support because, get this, YOUR WIFE LEFT YOU BECAUSE YOU WERE AN ACCUSED RAPIST ONCE…

    Fuck around, are you really so naïve that you can’t see the life-altering consequences of false accusations, even IF you aren’t sent to prison?


  71. realityforever August 12, 2014 at 20:44 #

    That’s only one article of many; that was only the beginning and it has now reached the point to where women want to be able to claim rape even years later if they said ‘yes’ – basically any and every way to fuck men over and destroy their lives because they’re evil I guess and obviously have a seething hatred of men.

    Look at all the other laws the way the courts operate in order to help women fuck over men and extort them and take everything from them- is that out of LOVE or because they’re pure of heart? You know something and someone by their FRUITS.

    That’s nice, you know one father who got custody over the mother. Back here in the vast majority of society, mothers obtain custody of the children 80% of the time.

    “if you actually get a lawyer who’s working for you and not the courts, I think it’s very unlikely that you’d get convicted of a crime you never committed.”

    How would you know if a lawyer was working ‘for’ you and not the courts? Because he says so? Pretty naive there. And no, being convicted of a crime you did not commit is very common and happens everyday. Study the story of Brian Banks and you’ll understand how it works. Most people don’t know, prob yourself included, much about the legal system and how it works at ALL. There’s A) what is taught in law school- all of the abstract concepts and then B) how it’s SUPPOSED to work aaaaand then C) how it actually works everyday. The court system in the U.S. is extremely, extremely corrupt and evil also filled to the brim with inept morons as well.

    Only 10% of cases go to trial, this is because most people cannot afford $20,000-$50,000 for a jury trial which is what an attorney is going to charge you especially for a rape trial. In addition the attorney will warn the defendant that if they go to trial and the jury finds them guilty, the sentence will be 10 times harsher, that is how Brian Banks ended being convicted of rape with zero evidence. He was forced to do what’s called a ‘plea bargain.’ That is how 90% of all criminal cases are dealt with.

    I feel like I’m speaking to someone who just got here to planet Earth. I’m not sure if you’re really that naive or just pretending to play dumb just to be obstinate, but I’m afraid you’re not getting what I was saying; ANY interaction with females in the U.S. is a very, very bad idea.

    You’re looking at either about 5 ways to go to jail and prison for doing nothing wrong, being ripped off a million different ways LEGALLY with the HELP of the legal system and that is 90% guaranteed by the time it’s all over and then lastly, because of VAWA, a high risk of being assaulted and going to jail for being the VICTIM of assault, not to mention under VAWA, a woman murdering a man is virtually legal as long as she admits to it (that’s where Jodi Arias messed up) and claims ‘abuse.’ Playing with dirty hypodermic needles in the park is far safer.

    But to be quite honest, because 99% of the females I meet everyday are so toxic and repulsive and all of the females I have ever had relationships in the U.S. have all been so horrendous, I miss women the same way someone misses hemorrhoids.


  72. Spaniard August 12, 2014 at 20:47 #

    Ok, I own it.
    But I am an anti semite who reads Proust, Spinoza, Arendt, the mentioned before, likes Polanski´s movies and one of his favourite courtesans is an Ukranian Hasidic Jew.


  73. Spaniard August 12, 2014 at 20:51 #

    Susan, I think she is an actual women hater.


  74. Spaniard August 12, 2014 at 20:58 #

    It is a pitty we do not have here that gorgeous BBW´s and SSBBW´s you have in USA and they have in Britain. I think Mediterranean diet prevents people from obesity.

    But, happily, during the summer, it is possible to see legions of anglosaxon BBW´s female tourists doing top less on the beach and laying down, having sunbaths and spreading their legs on the sand…

    Such a beautiful image.


  75. TheSharpeful August 12, 2014 at 21:17 #

    “That it took women-as-allies to get feminists to listen to male grievances”

    Oh I wasn’t talking about feminists…
    I was talking about people in general. The media, journalists, public opinion.

    I don’t care about the opinion of bigots (feminists) on mens issues no more than I would care about the opinion of the KKK on civil rights.


  76. That_Susan August 12, 2014 at 21:28 #

    No, I’m not blaming men for false rape accusations, and I’m not saying it’s just a “pain” to have to deal with an accusation like that. I’m actually saying it boggles my mind that ANY man would feel safe sleeping with women he hardly knew with that kind of threat hanging over his head. I honestly think this is a worse threat than the possible pregnancy or STD that a promiscuous woman is risking.

    And I’m not saying this as someone who slept around herself, and is now saying men shouldn’t do what I got to do. I waited till I was married at age 35, so it’s not like I’m saying you should toe a line that I wasn’t willing to toe myself.


  77. That_Susan August 12, 2014 at 21:36 #

    A lawyer who’s working for you and not the courts is one who’s getting paid by you and not the courts. But you’re absolutely right that $20-$50 thousand is a lot of money. It’d still be worth it to me to pay for the rest of my life over something like this — but still grossly unfair.


  78. spiralina August 12, 2014 at 22:18 #

    I’m not a feminist because I’m a woman of color, and the feminist movement has time and again shown it only seeks to expand the power of already wealthy and privileged middle-class white women.

    Feminists have worked to destroy the nuclear family, ignoring communities of color in desperate need of husbands and fathers. Feminists have staunchly promoted abortion, ignoring statistics showing it’s poor women and women of color who are most likely to face the awful “choice” of either killing their fetus or giving birth without the financial/medical resources wealthier women take for granted. Feminists promote the wage gap myth, ignoring the fact that white women make MORE than men of color while also benefiting the most from affirmative action policies. Feminists complain about women’s oppression, ignoring the fact that men are statistically at much higher risk for murder AND suicide while young men of color fill America’s prisons to capacity. Feminists complain ad nauseum about “rape culture”, ignoring the culture of violence that has consumed so many of our boys and young men.

    These women do not speak for us and they don’t represent us. They never had. We’re just sitting on the sidelines watching it fall apart.


  79. judgybitch August 12, 2014 at 22:20 #

    I could not agree with you more. Feminism has been a disaster for POC – white women exploited the black community to provide domestic labor at what amounts to slave wages and continues to do so. A total moral travesty that eliminates feminism from any claim to goodness.


  80. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 22:22 #

    Oh, I’m sorry, did someone use hyperbole in JB land? Oh, Noes!

    Liked by 1 person

  81. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 22:25 #

    And again, hugs!

    Clearly there are enough outliers everywhere that it’s worth me opening my mouth about these thoughts, at least I’ll meet one or two people who agree, or can add more 🙂


  82. spiralina August 12, 2014 at 22:31 #

    Most women of color NEVER co-signed feminism. I could give you a long list of reasons why but I’ll just say their pet issues, mainly designed to destroy the nuclear family and enact affirmative action policies benefiting wealthy white women, NEVER helped our communities and often actively harmed them. Our voices were subsumed by the more privileged voices of feminists, but we’ve been wary of them for a long time. Black women were speaking out against feminism in the 1960s, but it didn’t become a thing until cute young White women jumped on board.

    I think it’s sad the MRM has veered so far into white nationalism, because a lot of us would’ve felt common ground with you otherwise.


  83. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 22:35 #

    Also a misogynist that reads a blog run by a woman and also loves having sex with women described as evil and satanic. And BBW’s…

    You’re really not good at bigotry, are you? What next, joining the KKK, then dating Oprah?


  84. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 22:43 #

    Having been “kerbstomped” by both, I’ve yet to be able to tell them apart. Oh, wait, the Feminists don’t shave their armpits, and the skinheads tend to shower, right?


  85. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 22:45 #

    What you said, but with more swearing and hyperbole…

    Once again, glad to have met you, sir.


  86. spiralina August 12, 2014 at 22:47 #

    I’ve always appreciated that you’re one of the few MRM advocates who seems to “get” this. Feminism is a wealthy white women’s movement, always has been. I’ve always been sad much of the MRM took such a hard turn toward white nationalism; we could’ve been great allies.

    What really drove it home for me was watching White feminists attack Beyonce for publicly expressing devotion toward her husband, saying she wasn’t being enough of a “strong, independent feminist role model” for her fans. That’s when I realized, wow, we really are inhabiting different worlds. Throughout Black history it was illegal for slaves to marry. We never had the chance to build nuclear families and experience the masculine love and protection (oh sorry, I mean eeeevil patriarchy) White women so easily threw away. And in a country where the Black nuclear family is now all but shattered and so many of our men rot in prison leaving our boys without positive male role models, a powerful Black woman choosing to raise her child within a healthy and functional marriage is ABSOLUTELY a commendable and revolutionary act.

    THIS is why I’m not a feminist. But I am a happily married woman, so I won’t be tweeting any #WomenAgainstFeminism signs artfully framing my boobs 😉


  87. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 23:04 #

    Only in the States so far. I hang out and chat with (and occasionally even write for) , or at least the guys who run it. Sometimes (twice so far) I’ve gone on poster runs with them, because even their posters I agree with. Out of the two main guys I’ve met, only one is even vaguely right wing, and certainly not right wing in an American sense. But, to be fair, our left wing here in Australia would be considered flagrant communists over there :p. In any case, there are a lot of people passionate about these issues that aren’t land owning, gun toting, tax hating white people.

    So, while I can understand why one would see what you see, please, if nothing else, see us too. I’ve been fighting with myself over whether to allow the MHRA label to be applied to myself (mostly because I think it’s a stupid name, and Feminism already made that mistake), but I am, among many things, an activist for the rights of all human beings, and this doesn’t somehow not include men. So, if you leave out the capital letters, I am certainly, among many, many other things (philosopher, poet, chronic masturbater, truck packer, comedian, writer, etc etc) an activist for the human rights of men.

    Trust me, not all of us drank the Paul Elam kool-aid, and not all of us are Libertarian, or Anarcho-Capitalist (my personal favorite idiocy), or just “white” guys demanding more hairspray and less sass from our womenfolk.


  88. JShaft August 12, 2014 at 23:14 #

    If 99% of the females you meet every day are like that, I can suggest two things: Either move, or seek help. Either your mental wiring filters everything they do to fit into this internal mold of what “all women are like”, or you live somewhere that has a statistically massively disproportionate number of horrible people.

    Oh, wait, there’s a third option: You’re the problem, and just don’t like women. In which case, enjoy empty pornography, sleeping alone and bitter rants on the internet.

    Seriously, look up the term “Counterproductive bigot” and you’ll probably find the phrase “99% of all _____ I meet are _____”, in which the first blank is a blanket group, and the second a negative value judgment.

    Seriously, 99% of people like you make me sick.


  89. Jason Wexler August 12, 2014 at 23:17 #

    Thank you, I guess this answers my question about women who recognize and are appalled by mainstream whiny rich women feminism, as much as by radical man hating feminism. For what it’s worth not all the men here identify as or even support the MRM. I can’t speak for the others I know comment here, but my concerns about the MRM are its tendency towards hyperbole and extremism means it is setting itself up to follow in the steps of feminism, and possibly other social justice movements, which were sore winners, ungracious in victory and unaware that they won, always finding something new to be aggrieved about. I don’t follow the MRM outside of Janet and Karen Straughn so I don’t know about a tendency towards white nationalism, but are my concerns/hesitations similar to yours?


  90. Jason Wexler August 12, 2014 at 23:29 #

    With my tongue planted firmly in my cheek, I have to ask if as sometimes happens an idea is so repugnant as to make one question the values of the people who express it, as in this case, what does that last 1% have that earns redemption for them?


  91. Jason Wexler August 12, 2014 at 23:31 #

    Before I google it I’m going to guess that SSBBW means super-sized big beautiful women… and now to see if I guessed right.


  92. Jim August 13, 2014 at 03:26 #

    “… all I can think of is that she just wants my sperm and a monthly check each month in child support. Why? Because the legal system ALLOWS her to!”

    Well, I’d say it doesn’t only allow it but ENCOURAGES it. Taking already extremely narcissistic people and encouraging them to commit ever greater evils creates extremely disgusting and toxic people. Not exactly types anyone with any sense would want to associate with.


  93. Jim August 13, 2014 at 03:33 #

    Please….I just ate. :/


  94. Jim August 13, 2014 at 03:38 #

    “I’ve always appreciated that you’re one of the few MRM advocates who seems to “get” this.”

    One of the few? Hmmm…..I’ve seen that in a lot of places. From what I can tell it’s not just white women btw but wealthy, bored, privileged white women. It’s funny. They were so privileged yet acted like they were persecuted. Meanwhile, black people had to put up with the unbelievable horseshit of Jim Crow in the South! Make me want to throw up.


  95. Spaniard August 13, 2014 at 09:31 #

    A try hard to be a bigot but at the end of the day my liberal side betrays me.

    I do not find Oprah attractive. I always loved a black pornstar named Angel Kelly.


  96. Spaniard August 13, 2014 at 09:39 #

    What´s wrong about empty pornography, sleeping alone and
    expresing yourself in the internet?


  97. Spaniard August 13, 2014 at 10:07 #

    But I am very glad and proud that in Spain we did not allow Jew Sheldon Adelson to build Eurovegas near Madrid.


  98. That_Susan August 13, 2014 at 10:55 #

    Great post! I’d never thought about it that way before. I’ve learned a lot here, but some stuff concerns me, such as what seems to a lot of negativity toward any woman who didn’t totally make the right choices. Have you read JB’s post about single mothers? I just don’t like to see any movement that goes to another extreme that’s just as harmful. If you feel like commenting on the post at the link below, I’d be really interested to hear your thoughts about it.


  99. realityforever August 13, 2014 at 16:23 #

    …and people like you are the other half of the problem that has helped an entire generation of females in the U.S. to become narcissistic, Hell of Earth monsters by deflecting criticism and accountability away from them, while they become more hideous, trashy and repulsive by the very second.

    Your argument is as asinine, juvenile and infantile as “if you don’t like Obama letting the country be invaded, then you’re a racist.” Or if I said I hate child molesters, someone like you would say, “Child molester Hater.” I would ask, “… And?” Of course I hate child molesters because they’re evil.

    Sometimes I wonder if it isn’t people like YOU are the real problem – the ‘sexist’ baiters, the ‘race’ baiters and on and on – the Marxists who not only keep society from moving forward, but keep it on a steady direction down the toilet by putting people above criticism.

    Let’s take a look at the supposed ultimate American female; Hillary Clinton- she will prob even be a candidate for president again. The implication certainly seems to be that she is the best American women can do. Do the words, “WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?” ring a bell? When asked about her responsibility for the deaths of Americans? “Complete and utter UNACCOUNTABLY and arrogance and FUCK YOU for even DARING to question me.”

    That is the profile of 99% of every U.S. female- an absolute monster of human being. Now, imagine being in a RELATIONSHIP with some THING like that. That’s not even human. If that is your idea of ‘quality,’ then you have extremely low standards. And no, ‘I’ don’t need to move, U.S. women need to finally, finally come back to the human race, but it’s going to be extremely difficult for such monsters to do. U.S. women need to be educated in just how to be even HUMAN.


  100. Scotty G. August 13, 2014 at 16:37 #

    Equating the MRM with StormFront is a tad melodramatic, don’t you think?

    You may have seen many angry white guys, like myself, spitting fire against the PC behemoth simply because, for the last twenty years, straight, white men of Christian upbringing have been declared as the sole cause of every social ill in the world since the beginning of time… other than becoming a modern-day, milquetoast Uncle Tom, our only other option was to circle our wagons for self-preservation.


  101. spiralina August 13, 2014 at 17:39 #

    I never equated the MRM with Stormfront, so I don’t know where you’re getting that from. And I certainly support white men discussing their issues amongst themselves without self-censorship.

    I’m just pointing out that even for a person who might agree with your basic concerns, going into a comments section and seeing a flurry of incoherent rants about niggers and Jews is a bit off-putting to say the least.


  102. spiralina August 13, 2014 at 17:46 #

    I get your point, but you’re treating “women” as a monolithic entity, and that’s not any more fair than when it happens to men.

    Most of these #WomenAgainstFeminism girls appear to be very young; they played no part in erecting feminist ideology, many of them have been harmed directly by it as their fathers were erased from their lives, and now that they’re old enough to have a political voice, they’re using it to call out the hypocrisies of feminism. What else do you expect them to do? Atone for the sins of their mothers? If anything we should be taking them under our wing and educating them more.


  103. realityforever August 13, 2014 at 17:52 #

    There is SO much confusion over what women do to men in this country on the whole. Women will try to confuse the issue with the infantile, “not all women are like that,” by trying to reduce the entire issue down to a simple ‘character’ issue, talking to you like you’re stupid and that is 98% of what comes out of a U.S. female’s mouth; nothing constructive, intelligent or helpful or meant to heal the pain and the alienation, no, just pure SPITE and HATE and a spit in your face and 9 year old style cattiness to further cause even more hate, mistrust, frustration and distance.

    Most people in general are simply not educated enough or intelligent enough to understand these issues are a WEB of intersecting worlds; female nature, the legal system itself, the laws concerning marriage and relationships and CULTURE. Women are conformist creatures and most of them are alike in their behavior and attitudes because they WANT TO BE. And it is a cultural trend for women in the U.S. and western countries in general to act the way they do because of 50 years of Feminism. MEN would have become just as monstrous if we had had a half century of unaccountably and blaming everything on someone else as a ‘movement.’

    And last but not least, because the LAWS or lack or ethics in the laws we have is the ultimate reason why U.S. women are typically monsters- remember this:

    “Why do people do bad things? Often because they can. The absence of law and law enforcement tends to embolden the corrupt and corrupt the good.”

    Remember that when a female accuses you of ‘hating’ women when you tell her that because of the laws, you just can’t leave everything up to simply just ‘trusting’ her and that she would not just simply ‘trust’ you if the tables were turned and SHE was the one with 100% of the legal system is aimed at her head with a house full of natural gas just waiting for a spark and her whole life explodes.

    Imagine if RAPE were suddenly made legal. Women would be running around screaming, “we’ve got to DO something, this is INSANE! We’ve got to change this law!!” And then every man she said this to would reply with, “Hey, not every man is like that, Stupid.” THAT’S what it feels like. Every time a female talks to men this way knowing full well what she is doing, I tell her in so many words that she can go back to hell where she came from because I have finally realized that 98% of the females in this country are nothing less than pure evil.


  104. MC August 13, 2014 at 19:24 #

    I don’t really follow AVfM. Just have read a few articles awhile ago. Does Paul Elam really say anything more controversial than JB? She seems pretty controversial with a lot of her articles. Though I think her actual mainstream appearances have been a lot more friendly and less controversial, she has some articles that the mainstream would probably get offended by.

    WAF is however very not controversial. And they are the reason this attention is being given. JB and Karen Straughn have existed for awhile without much mainstream attention until WAF came a long it seems. The conference also might have gotten some attention.


  105. JShaft August 13, 2014 at 21:57 #

    I don’t know. I ask myself those questions, along with: What’s wrong with sleeping in the gutter, eating out of dumpsters, masturbating in public toilets, wearing the same clothes for weeks on end, and injecting drugs.

    The fact that I ask these questions from a very comfortable distance from any of those concepts is the telling part…


  106. JShaft August 13, 2014 at 22:12 #

    Get help. You suffer from PTSD that may soon enough develop into BPD, if it hasn’t already. Your overuse of capitals on the internet, your constant conflation of disagreement with evil, and your consistent remarks alluding to horrors that occurred to you at some point in your past, coupled with seeing the same “evil” in humans that share similar visible characteristics makes you looks, sound, and above all act like a monster.

    Your existence, your voice, your feelings are all valid. Something really fucked happened to you, and if the same thing happened to me, I’d probably be reacting like you are. Let me get that out there before I tell you that those same things aren’t helping the situation. Every time anyone who is passionate about these issues, like male suicide, child genital mutilation, male support services for DV and homelessness, and generally getting society to stop treating men as second class citizens opens their mouth, they get quotes from unhelpfully vocal persons such as yourself thrown at them, and the enemy, your hated foes in feminism, they get a win for the day. A win you handed them.

    I’ll talk in the language I feel might get across to one as virulently sexist as yourself: Man. The. Fuck. Up. Soldier. Stop freaking out and throwing ammo to the opposing trenches. Not only doesn’t it work, it helps them shoot your compatriots. Either work out a way to release these emotions that doesn’t hurt those working to help, or just go full retard and stick to MGTOW separatist land, and let the rest of us have a constructive, sane conversation. Please.

    Honestly, I do hope that one day you get the help you need, but one thing I can recommend as someone who has recovered from abuse-related mental illness: Don’t go back and read you old posts. Trust me, once you are well, you won’t like reading them…


  107. JShaft August 13, 2014 at 22:23 #

    If you are going to use anally derived statistics, please keep them consistent. Unless you’re referring to three conflicting studies your brain made, that say that either 95%, 98%, or 99% of women are pure evil incarnate.

    Here’s a quick question: How do you start these conversations with these evil women? When they say these evil, hurtful, spiteful things, what are they in response to?

    Considering that in here, you do tend to come across as a Radfem’s nightmarish vision of “Toxic masculinity”, I’m wondering just how personable you are when away from the keyboard…


  108. JShaft August 13, 2014 at 22:37 #

    Not sure where you’re going here, but…

    All I can really speak to that you’ve said anything about is Paul Elam. My problems with him stem from the great work he’s done for men’s mental health, by claiming a mental illness that’s both heavily underdiagnosed in men, and is, according to some stats, the single biggest cause of suicide, is actually a disease that means you are an evil bitch. So, in order to play to the base of his support (abused husbands) he basically genders a genderless disease that the system doesn’t diagnose enough in men, leading (one can imagine) to some of the higher suicide rate among men, which is another issue for AVFM…

    I still struggle to work out how that helps anyone… Oh, and he also says it’s incurable. *shakes head* Here I am, trying to enter the workforce at 37, after decades with a PTSD-related illness that I’m now recovered from… One that was inflicted upon me by my feminist mother, no less…

    Surely I should be a supporter of his, logically. I’m a serial DV victim, been raped by women, brought up abused by a feminist, yet I’d laugh if he was on fire. If that’s how I feel, how many others who are more prone to accepting feminist dogma at face value are going to love him and his message of intolerance and rage (with the occasional reference to arcane minutia of divorce laws in selected states of a single country)?

    Whereas people being upfront about what they don’t like, in bullet points…

    Seriously, that guy is so massively self-important and yet majorly counterproductive…

    JB and Karen, on the other hand, well… JB does say the odd batshit mean/crazy thing, but it always strikes me as pure clickbait whenever she’s not getting enough attention (we all do it sometimes :p), and Karen Straughn is the reason I’m here at all… If her blog was regularly updated, I’d be there instead, but currently here is the least batshit-insane place where issues I’m passionate about get discussed at all.

    Seriously, look at the most bugfuck crazy statements in JB’s comments section, stuff from Spaniard or realityforever, they honestly wouldn’t stand out or even get noticed over at AVFM. I think they need a “T” in that acronym though… to make it A Voice For Traumatised Men.

    Because people say the most useful things in that state. The only way you’ll get better conversation is by hanging out in the intensive care unit…


  109. MC August 14, 2014 at 01:38 #

    I think I know what you’re talking about. When I first came across the MRM, some of the comments I read on the spearhead made me hesitant to call myself a MRA. Well I don’t call myself a MRA, just anti-feminist.

    But I’m not that familiar with the AVfM crowd. I think I commented twice on one article about 2 years ago. I have watched people make fun of Paul Elam before, like Bernard Chapin’s videos which I find somewhat entertaining, but that’s usually about left right politics.

    Don’t know what he has said about suicide. Though I have heard suicide rates increase a lot for men after divorce. I do recall them championing Thomas Ball after he lit himself on fire, which made no sense to me. The guy slapped his daughter hard enough to make her bleed, and lit himself on fire as some sort of protest after not being able to see her (which showed me little concern for his daughter). Didn’t get the whole aligning with what seemed like a disturbed individual to me.


  110. JShaft August 14, 2014 at 06:44 #

    Yeah… The way I look at it is like this: I had two really awful parents, both in their own ways. The only way I could even consider being a parent was to work out exactly what they did wrong, as opposed to what I didn’t like. Really, really finely detailed examination of helpful versus counterproductive, etc etc. I felt, and feel, that I got given a strangely great opportunity through all the pain, which was I knew how not to behave. I also feel that having felt such terrible treatment, it’s a sort of moral imperative that I not do those things to others. Knowing what’s bad and why it’s bad, regardless of circumstances, prompting events and outside influences, trauma, and so on… It gives one a pretty strong obligation not to do those things.

    AVFM is just the worst offender on this front. They simultaneously decry Feminism’s most extreme statements whilst making their own outrageous, hateful rants. They decry the crazier parts of Feminism as being written by mentally-ill abuse victims, then ask mentally ill abuse victims to write articles. They scream NAMALT then go bezerk is someone says NAWALT or NAFALT.

    It truly saddens me. I’m theoretically their “target market”, in that I’ve suffered most of their most hated injustices, from growing up with a Feminist mother pushing feminist gender theory on me from an early age, to regular physical and psychological abuse by female partners, all the way to being charged with DV whilst being the only person with any injuries, and those earned for daring to attempt to leave the relationship. Then I get my eyes opened by Karen Straughn, and you’d think I’d be happy as a pig in mud, hanging out at AVFM…

    But… What they say that doesn’t sicken me scares me, and their end effect is to create a little fiefdom pandering to the rage and angst of those who are, unfortunately, not currently very well. I’d love to be able to get along with them, work with them, and get some actual work done on these issues, but Paul Elam claims he has no interest in doing anything other than “getting people talking” about the issues, which seems to translate to getting Feminists to talk about him… :/

    JB does also play the troll card when she’s feeling like she’s not getting much in the way of love from the more mentally damaged among the MRA base, or to giggle while she watches Feminism lose it’s collective shit over some horrible twitter comment. But, credit where it’s due, she actually writes good things too. Well thought out, well reasoned, intelligent, insightful and caring works, that might get some of the right people listening. Now, if we could just prize her away from the AVFM troll-culture (yeah, I said it :p)…


  111. malcolmthecynic August 14, 2014 at 06:53 #

    Absolutely nailed it.


  112. malcolmthecynic August 14, 2014 at 06:56 #

    The big problem is that nowadays basically all women are feminists. Black women especially have become dependent on the system that feminists, at least partially, have created. Feminists begetting feminists, in order to survive.


  113. malcolmthecynic August 14, 2014 at 07:05 #

    Women against feminism is better than not. But they’re majorly misunderstanding the concept if they think feminism has become “corrupted” (it was always corrupt), and if they think in any way like the woman from the first article JB linked on the topic I question just how far we’ve really gotten.

    The other problem is that this will just stop people from identifying as feminists. But it will do absolutely nothing to change the ideas, because that’s not the media campaign. The media campaign is “Women Against Feminsm”. All it will take is for you to say “I’m not a feminist because I don’t hate men, and yet I still support this…”, and voila. You’re in the clear.

    Like Sauron giving the Ring to Gandalf, I have a feeling feminism might not really be going away. It’ll just transfer into something that looks more benign, and is more difficult to fight as a result.

    You can all see why I’m called the Cynic…


  114. JShaft August 14, 2014 at 07:24 #

    Funny, I was just watching a video about WAF that sited stats from a survey by (fuck, Vanity Fair? Something like that) some magazine that stated more women have a negative view of Feminism than a positive one, and that about 20% of women call themselves Feminist.

    I know, I know, I can’t source my stats, but still, out of curiosity, just which women and in what country are they nearly all feminist? Cuz if it’s where you live, I recommend moving somewhere saner…


  115. JShaft August 14, 2014 at 07:26 #

    Yeah, cuz look how hard they fight to protect their label. I’m sure a presto-chango rebrand is just around the corner… Any minute now…

    So, in this interesting world in which you have predictive powers above us mere mortals, can you see what they cleverly rename Gender Studies as?


  116. JShaft August 14, 2014 at 07:40 #

    Oh, and as for your genius accusation that I may be “Part of the problem” that leads all 95-99% of U.S women to be monsters because of my evil marxist ways…

    I’m Australian. My impact on your country’s culture and the women therein isn’t nearly as large as I’d like it to be, and even if I was your evil Barack Obama, you’d not be living in a Marxist hellhole.

    You are, however, the most classic personification of everything people outside the U.S laugh at and/or about, in relation to the perceived stupidity of some Americans. I’m forced to wonder if you’re actually a genius troll or just a right wing racist sexist nutjob, who’s idea of perfect womanhood is so alien to the nature of humanity as to be absolutely laughable, outside your own warped little mind.

    Whenever Feminists point to this movement and call it filled with angry loners who can’t get laid, and harbor a burning hatred for women, they’re pointing at you.

    I’m sure women miss you too, buddy…


  117. malcolmthecynic August 14, 2014 at 08:19 #

    What the fuck crawled up your ass and died? My whole point was that I don’t CARE what they call themselves, they’re still feminist. You’re feminist if you believe in equality between men and women.

    There is no such thing. The sexes aren’t equal.

    Yet how many women would say that there’s anything wrong with the portrayal of men in sitcoms?

    How many women would dare deny the existence of the all-powerful “glass ceiling”?

    How many women still see marriage 2.0 as a good thing?

    I don’t give a rat’s ass what they call themselves. They can call themselves Conan’s Warriors for all I care.

    You really want to know what they’ll rename “Gender Studies”?

    Hint: They’ve already done it.

    It’s called “Modern American History”. Other countries can take out the middle word and fill in the blanks.

    Read popular catholic blogger Matt Walsh’s articles on dating, marriage, and women in general. They reek of feminism. The culture is infatuated by it.


  118. Spaniard August 14, 2014 at 13:43 #

    Hating women is not the way, but despise them yes.
    Not “feminists”, but women in general.

    You say: “women in this country”. Well, it is not only in the U.S. Is something who has to do with white women.

    The white woman (Nordic, Celtic, Alpic, Dinaric, Slavic, Mediterranean, Semitic) is narcissistic because tend to be very beautiful.
    Asian, black, Arabic, Amerindian, Indian, are not so beautiful. I do not say there are female beauty among the non white, I just say that female BEAUTY with capitals is something which belongs to the white woman.

    Now it is easy to understand why female chauvinism has taken place in Europe, North America, Australia and New Zealand… the place of the white woman.

    So this is a double axe for men who live in white countries: they have access to the truly goddesses on Earth but at the same time they have to deal with that divas.


  119. Spaniard August 14, 2014 at 13:55 #

    It is very easy to deal with evil women.
    There are 2 kinds of evil women: the ugly and the attractive (cute but not really beautiful girls tend to be nice and not evil).
    The ugly (the witch bitch) you just ignore her completely.
    The attractive (the hot bitch) you try to fuck her but ignoring wathever comes from her mouth. They are just like Satan: when they speak they mix truths with lies. So, you have to behave like an exorcist when is dealing with Lucifer. Just reciting the Rituale Romanum and not payng attention to what the beast is saying.
    And the “cute”, as said, is not pure evil incarnate. This is the “good girl”, and of course, you not only try to fuck her but you listen to her as well. She is a nice human being with golden heart and a delicate flower. But in any case, never marry her because she can rape you in Court, too.


  120. Goober August 14, 2014 at 15:38 #

    “I’ve got a lot of black friends, guys! Seriously!”


  121. Goober August 14, 2014 at 15:45 #

    What’s wrong with that article? It says, in basic terms:

    1. You shouldn’t date people who make bad choices;
    2. Single motherhood is a good indicator that a woman has made bad choices;
    3. Therefore, you shouldn’t date single mothers.

    DO you reject any of those premises made, or are you just taking issue with the strong language she used in the article? Because the strong language part was as much for the entertainment value as it was anything else.

    Recognize that it is possible to disagree with something someone said without invalidating everything else they say and believe. If you’re waiting for someone to agree with you 100%, you’ll be waiting for a while.


  122. Jason Wexler August 14, 2014 at 17:30 #

    I haven’t bothered to read anything over at AVfM, so I don’t know if you’re being hyperbolic or not, but in the interest of maintaining our history of civil dialog and general agreement I will accept your claims as true. However, both in response to you and to expand another point I made elsewhere in the thread, Paul Elam even if he is every terrible thing you say, is doing something good and vital for mens rights or at least the individual issues we may support under that umbrella. I said elsewhere that every successful American social justice/civil rights movement has had mainstream outsiders as allies shining a light on injustices; a role admirably carried out for MRM’s/anti-feminism by Janet, Karen and WAF, something I think we agree on.

    However that’s only one of three types of groups that have been needed, the others are the angry radicals who are pissed off by everything, a role being filled by Paul Elam, if your assessment is correct; the second or I suppose third group is the diplomatic moderates which have genuine dynamic tension with the radicals, a role being filled by the likes of Warren Farrell and probably you and I. The model has worked reasonably well in the past in American contexts, I’m not sure if it’s ever been tried or even needed abroad, let alone succeeded.

    My one potential criticism of the model, which is part of the reason I’m not ready to sign on as an MRA, is that the radicals alway seem to degenerate into “rump” organizations which misidentify the travails of everyday life as continued evidence of opressive discrimination, sort of like both mainstream and radical contemporary feminism is doing and we’re kvetching about here. You may recall I said in another thread a few weeks back “I stand ready to be the ‘mainstream’ LGBT ally against the LGBT activists, when they start treating straight and ‘gender conforming’ (I hate the term ‘cis’) people like scum and howling how everything is an anti-LGBT attack, for ever denying LGBT people rights”. I feel it only appropriate I take on that role as I was a radical activist in the LGBT movement at the end of the era when and a place where radicals were still needed, I’m hesitant to be an MRA, because I don’t want to be involved in creating another monster which will need to be taken down as well. I’ve come to believe, that individual issue advocacy may be less efficient, but just as effective and potentially less damaging, then broad ideological movements.


  123. That_Susan August 14, 2014 at 17:56 #

    You’re right that no two people will ever see things identically, and I also agree that it’s not a good idea to date someone who MAKES bad choices. But having made a bad choice, or even a series of bad choices, in the past doesn’t necessarily equal being a person who regularly makes bad choices in the present.

    I also agree with staying away from anyone who presents him or herself as a total victim in life. That’s one thing that attracted me to my husband: he didn’t present himself as a victim in his prior divorce; he described his own role in the problems.

    And I agree that any person, male or female, who was the victim in an abusive marriage should be able to identify all the signs that were right there in plain view from the moment they started dating — the signs that were indications that this person was controlling and abusive. For example, anyone who just wants you all to him or herself, and resents everyone who’s close to you, is someone to stay far, far away from. To be able to feel comfortable dating someone who came out of such a relationship, I’d want to hear what they’re doing now to make sure that their future relationships are healthy.

    Sadly, a lot of people see possessiveness as a sign of love and even jump straight from one abuser to another, because they’re still attracted to the same kind of person; they just prefer an “early stage” abusive relationship over what it gets like when the honeymoon’s completely over.

    So on the one hand, I don’t disagree with everything JB said. But on the other hand, I don’t believe in being so quick to jump from seeing that someone made a bad choice to assuming that “This is a person who makes bad choices and no decent person should ever date him or her.”

    But obviously, people are a lot more interested in listening to JB than to me, so I think her communication style appeals to much a wider group of people than mine does.


  124. Jason Wexler August 14, 2014 at 18:56 #

    That_Susan, I don’t think it’s her communication style, but rather her validation, which appeals to many of her audience members. Keep in mind that nearly everyone here has been the victim of something or many somethings, and were mostly told to shut up and take it, JShaft has been saying for instance that A Voice for Men should be renamed A Voice for Traumatized Men. In my attempts of late to actually pay attention to what my conversation partner is actually saying (which is part of how ended up here in the first place) I think you add a lot of important and valid nuance, even in the instances you are wrong or at least I disagree. As to your point about not judging on past mistakes alone, I think that’s a good idea but remember there are parts of our psyche which resists raising other peoples children, while we can and do sublimate those thoughts, combining that hesitation with the red flag for bad decisions that being a single mother CAN be, Janets argument is extreme but not out of line.

    Sent from Samsung tablet


  125. That_Susan August 14, 2014 at 19:20 #

    I do feel that bringing a new person in to help raise one’s kids can be a bad idea. If, God forbid, anything ever happened to my dear husband, it’s not likely that I’d remarry because we’ve created this whole way of life that it wouldn’t be fair to expect a new guy to just “fit into” — and yet, that’s pretty much what a new guy would have to do to a great extent, because I’m sure not going to traumatize my kids by having some new person come in and say, “That may have been okay with your dad, but all the rules have changed because I’m here now.”

    So whereas my husband and I started this family together, a new guy’d just have to decide whether this was a situation he could be happy in. So maybe it can work with two people who are on similar pages as far as parenting — but again, I’m past the age where I could give him any kids of his own, so he’d most likely be someone who either had his own kids, in which case we’d be combining families and creating a lot of stress and drama for kids who’d already suffered the pain of losing a parent, or he’d be some guy who just never wanted kids, in which case he’d be crazy to date a woman with kids.

    And I do agree with what JB said about not ripping children’s hearts apart by bonding with them and then breaking up with their mom. If I were widowed, I wouldn’t want to bring anyone new into our lives unless he was a sure thing — but then, how would we know he was a sure thing if he’d never had a chance to interact with our family? How could he know if he’d be happy living with us? It’s kind of a catch 22, but I suppose I’d just have to be sure that the guy would be a lifelong friend to our family regardless of whether we worked out or not.

    I’m frankly glad that it’s just a hypothetical situation for me.


  126. Jason Wexler August 14, 2014 at 20:05 #


    I think you may ultimately agree with Janet more than you initially realized. As a 30 or 40 something (I’ll be gentlemanly and not ask), hypothetical widow or divorcee with older, possibly teenaged children, you have the wisdom and for lack of a better phrase maternal instinct, to put your kids well being ahead of your own. The early 20 something single mother with younger children, more often than not isn’t a widow, a divorcee or even jilted lover, adding a boyfriend/husband to the mix is still bad for all the good reasons you pointed out, the fact that this hypothetical women is probably a single mother for reasons stemming from bad decision making (though not always, my sister-in-law was a single mother because of violent rape by step parent coupled with psychological abuse by the Catholic church) and is trying to add a father in spite of it being ill advised for the reasons you laid out, it’s hard to see her as being someone making good decisions.

    Sent from Samsung tablet


  127. That_Susan August 14, 2014 at 20:39 #

    Well if she was a rape victim, that sounds like someone else’s horrible decision — not hers. And I can’t condemn her for not having an abortion or giving up the baby for adoption, because I don’t believe I could ever do either of those things.

    Also, a young mother with one small child has a lot more to offer a man than a 50-year-old woman with a teen and a preteen. With a young single mother of one child, a man could come into that situation, adopt the child, and have a lot more influence in that child’s early years, meaning he would have a part in establishing the patterns in the home — not just be coming into a “readymade family” and having to adapt. And he could still have the experience of fathering his own biological children.


  128. Jason Wexler August 14, 2014 at 21:02 #

    I was using my sister-in-law as an example of recognizing that not all young single mothers are the result of bad decisions on their part, of course the rapist and the priest are to blame in that case.

    However my brother came into that situation just after my niece turned 4, and even then it has been a huge adjustment for my niece to adopt to having any rules and structure, and she’s very resentful of that. For a variety of reasons I’m the primary day to day caregiver, and I have to deal with anger and frustration even after 3 and a half years.

    My relationship as the primary care giver and responsible adult, is part of the reason I’m exploring men’s rights, I’ve been harassed by law enforcement for being male with a child on several occasions, and the local mom’s won’t let their kids play with my niece because men with kids are scary don’t you know. Thankfully, and I say this as a committed atheist, there are a lot of Christian homeschoolers in my neighborhood, who have no problem, sending me their kids to play with my niece or taking my niece so I can have an afternoon off or to take care of my parents if their having a bad day.

    Sent from Samsung tablet


  129. JShaft August 14, 2014 at 22:56 #

    What crawled up my arse and died was your point… It didn’t make it that far the first time, and your clarification only managed to burrow in an inch further.

    Yo stretch the anal analogy further: I shit better arguments than that.


  130. JShaft August 14, 2014 at 22:59 #

    Yeah, that’s my issue too, in a nutshell. There’s not much point in calling ones self a Lenninist, is there? That’s the historical equivalent here, methinks…


  131. JShaft August 14, 2014 at 23:15 #

    As an atheist, I’ve often struggled with this conundrum. There are good atheists and good religious people, and bad both also. When it comes to simple, day-to-day behaving nicely in a community, the people who actually go and hang out with their neighbors every sunday tend to have us beat :/

    Me, I chalk that part up to experience. I grew up isolated from any sense of community, and thus I tend to lack skills others take for granted. Seriously, neighbors whose names I know because I met them while they were moving in, well, they know the names of other neighbors I’m still just on nodding terms with. Hell, it took us at least a year to get to first name basis with the family down the road with kids in the same daycare as us. This would be less lame if they weren’t the only other obvious old goths on the block, other than my girlfriend :p

    Christians tend to be more comfortable knocking on peoples doors on a sunday, just to invite them to bible study. Me, I’d have trouble knocking on a neighbor’s door if I was bleeding and needed an ambulance…


  132. malcolmthecynic August 14, 2014 at 23:20 #

    I didn’t make an analogy, you nitwit.


  133. Jason Wexler August 15, 2014 at 02:38 #

    This is getting increasingly off topic, but the other thing I did to help my niece socialize was a join a gay dads group, because they sure as hell aren’t going to have a problem with me. We will be testing the hypothesis of Christian friendlyness next year when her birthday party has both the kids who are being Christian home schooled and the kids of gay parents under one roof.

    On the issue of atheist interaction with religious people, I’ve never had a problem in practice, cordially getting along with people of faith, so long as they aren’t assaulting me or yelling at me. Having spent a lot of time on atheist blogs written by “angrier” people, it can sometimes be difficult to remember that most people of faith aren’t the horrible “monsters” being written about on those blogs, and are frequently just as appalled by their behavior. Sort of like how, you’ve had to argue elsewhere that no, not all women are evil or stupid (and possibly not even all feminists), I have to remind myself that whatever failings I may view religion as having, most religious people don’t have those failings. I used JudgyBitch to replace an atheist blog I’d been reading after he unironically did a post “We condemn the pro-life atheists for being stupid, but as the open-minded, rational skeptical community, what else ought we be intolerant of?” For what it’s worth the only answer I saw agreed upon before I left was “thinking we shouldn’t be intolerant of anything”.


  134. JShaft August 15, 2014 at 02:40 #

    Typo, was supposed to read To stretch, not you stretch. Interestingly, that would make it a sentence, rather than a bunch of random, meaningless words.

    In any case, it was my analogy. I made it. That’s what I referred to.

    Now, return to your nitpicking…


  135. MC August 15, 2014 at 03:19 #

    Well I’m not going to lie. I like some of the more shit-stirring articles by JB. They can be entertaining. Reading serious articles just gets depressing after awhile.


  136. JShaft August 15, 2014 at 05:02 #

    Look, that’s fine and all. Everyone likes to be entertained, and I’m not about to try to be the fun police.

    I would note that having fun and dealing with difficult and serious issues aren’t entirely the same thing, and maybe doing both under the same banner can lead to confusion.

    It’s a middle ground thing I guess. On the one hand, I want everyone who gets offended by comedy to just stfu already and stop pretending they want to laugh. I’m a big fan of… Inappropriate… “Edgy” (fuck but I hate that term) comedians like Frankie Boyle, Bill Burr, Jimmy Carr and so on, so I don’t have much sympathy for people who go out of their way to get offended and try to police our fun. However, there’s some serious, deep, profound issues we’re dealing with here. Life and death stuff. So, while I’m all for laughing as much as one can at such things, and the people that actively stand in the way of fixing horrific problems while screaming “EQUALITY” are far easier to cope with if we point and laugh as often as possible… However, I would say that posting satire side-by-side with serious matter only really works for the dedicated viewers. Everyone else is left wondering if anything is serious or a joke, trolling or statement of fact. Me, I’d just like as many people as possible made aware of these issues in a way that doesn’t make them especially inclined to actively work against resolving these problems.

    Seriously, for every right winger I find around these parts playing the “We tried being reasonable but it didn’t work, so now we’re douchebags” card, there has yet to be one that responds well to being reminded of Gandhi, or Vaclav Havel, or any of the other people who quietly, politely and nicely worked to get things done… Those who want publicity and don’t care about how it comes, those who equate being noticed with progress should look at just how much positive press the whole “Global Islamic Caliphate” concept is getting and maybe have a little rethink…


  137. MC August 15, 2014 at 09:14 #

    Not to change subjects, but I do dislike Ghandi. My parents are from India. Don’t know why they have such a person on their money.

    Stefan Molyneux even did a “truth about Ghandi” video on youtube revealing more about the kind of man he actually was.

    So I can understand why people specifically don’t like him. Penn and Teller even did a show giving more reasons to dislike him.

    Though back on subject, I do think the majority of MRA bloggers do not care about changing things through their blog posts. They are just there to convince men to stop participating in the system, or venting. I don’t think most have had an actual desire to take this mainstream, or actually make some change in the system, so don’t worry too much about how they come off.


  138. JShaft August 15, 2014 at 11:00 #

    Yeah, I know Gandhi was a right cunt, but he also lead a third world country to win against the British Empire, and that’s all I’m referencing when I mention him.

    Oh, and thanks for adding your view to the growing, depressing feeling that I’m more alone in wanting to actually effect change than I’d allowed myself to be lead to believe :/


  139. That_Susan August 15, 2014 at 11:15 #

    That’s great that you’ve stuck with her for three and a half years!

    And it’s appalling to me how suspicious so many people are towards men with children. I was at one of our neighborhood parks with my daughter one day a few years ago when a teenaged girl there expressed concern to me at seeing a man walking across the park with a small child. She said she’d always seen this child walking with her mother before, and never with that man.

    I looked and said that the child didn’t seem the least bit upset, and the teen girl got really offended and said something like, “Oh, so it’s okay for him to take her and do stuff to her if she doesn’t put up a fuss?” It’s like the younger generation is just so enculterated to assume every male is a kidnapper — but as a mom, I know how my own children would react to being snatched by a complete stranger.


  140. That_Susan August 15, 2014 at 11:28 #

    Yes, a few years back, when we switched from our neighborhood conservative Christian homeschooling group to a citywide secular homeschooling group, it took a lot longer to make friends and feel a part of things. We also switched from fundamentalist Christianity to Unitarian Universalism, and people in the UU church are friendly but it just does take a bit longer to build friendships in a community where they’re not worried about you going to hell if you don’t come back. 🙂

    But it was a change we needed to make. The moms in the Christian homeschooling group felt like the reason my younger daughter was such a handful was because I wasn’t spanking her. It was very refreshing to go to the secular group and see other people’s kids having meltdowns and stuff, and their moms dealing with them compassionately while everyone else just acted like it was no big deal, which it wasn’t.


  141. That_Susan August 15, 2014 at 11:38 #

    Yes, humor that only appeals to the insiders can be really counterproductive to a movement. The other day, I read an article titled “The Rise of the Ironic Man-Hater,” which explains the reasoning behind the “I bathe in male tears” shirts. It’s funny, or sad, how people steeped in a movement can’t see how expressing their irony is perceived by the general population.


  142. Jason Wexler August 15, 2014 at 13:13 #

    Even more frusteating, and part of the reason that men’s interactions with children are part of the men’s rights movement, is that the characteristics of the majority of people who commit nearly all crimes against children is that they are female and known to the child. Of course thankfully most childrdn aren’t in danger at all, but those that are, are actually safer in the presence or care of a “strange” man, then they are in their mothers care. By focusing on men, we are making children less safe not more.


  143. That_Susan August 15, 2014 at 13:16 #

    So what do you guys have against Gandhi? I tried watching the video MC linked to, but five minutes in, all he’d managed to do was ask for donations and explain why it was a bad idea to worship anyone.


  144. ladjpw August 15, 2014 at 13:20 #


    I’m sorry, you said some very supportive and nice things to me and I responded with a letter that could be viewed as combative and didn’t acknowledge those things.  Thank you for your kindness and words of encouragement,  I do appreciate what you said, and am greatful any time a wise woman tells people who are scared of men with children not to be, even if they don’t listen, I appreciate the effort and the support.


  145. Jason Wexler August 15, 2014 at 13:26 #

    The quick short answer is that Ghandi was a serial kiddie fiddler. There are a few other more nuanced mostly arcane political things as well, but that’s usually the big one. Although if Stephan Molyneaux is complaining about Ghandi, it may also just be that he was a supporter of what’s called social democracy, the kind of political system that most of western Europe and Canada has, instead of liberal democracy, which ironically American conservatives prefer.


  146. That_Susan August 15, 2014 at 13:29 #

    Even with mothers, it bugs me how there’s now a trend in the U.S. for people to just automatically hotline other people if they see them losing their grip with their kids in public. I heard about one mom whose small child kept trying to get out his carseat on the way home, and when she was stopped at a light and strapping him back in, someone in the car behind her took down her license number and reported her to the police. It just seems like everyone’s suspicious of everyone, though men certainly get the worst of it, and rather than seeing if there’s something they can say or do to help or encourage an overwhelmed parent, they’re all too ready to bring in the legal authorities.


  147. Jason Wexler August 15, 2014 at 13:45 #


    Yes I agree with you there. Also apparently lost in the aether is a second reply to your last response to me in which I thanked you for your kind words and support and apologized for not acknowledging it in the first response. I really am appreciative, and I don’t want to create a hostile unwelcoming environment, like I encountered as an undergrad in the feminism club.


  148. That_Susan August 15, 2014 at 14:02 #

    Well, according to an article I just found, the allegations about child molestation haven’t been confirmed — but it has nevertheless been very disturbing to me to learn about his racism and support of the caste system. And yet, I think we humans have a long history of focusing in on eradicating one form of injustice while blindly continuing to perpetuate another.

    For example, I’ve been reading Huston Smith’s book “A Seat at the Table: in Conversation with Native Americans on Religious Freedom,” and I was shocked to learn, a couple of weeks ago at age 50, that the same day President Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, he also signed a proclamation called “Nits Make Lice,” advocating for the slaughter of Indian women and children.

    So I guess we just need to realize that everyone does both good and crappy things in their lifetimes because everyone has some areas of mental clarity and some blind-spots, be thankful for whatever good has been done, and keep working to clear out the crap. And regarding the topic of this discussion: I see egalitarianism as good, and hatred and demonization of any group as crap that needs to be cleared out by people willing to speak the truth.

    Link to article on Gandhi:


  149. That_Susan August 15, 2014 at 14:05 #

    Thanks for your kindness!


  150. That_Susan August 15, 2014 at 14:06 #

    No worries!


  151. Goober August 15, 2014 at 15:24 #

    I just read the comment above about how Jason Wexler has had experience with people “hotlining” men with small children, even with no indication that the children were under duress.

    Here I thought I was the only one that had experienced that, because I thought the lady who confronted me in the grocery store was just batshit, and not a representation of the way people see a father interacting with his daughter in public.

    I was in the grocery store picking up some bell peppers and tomatoes to make my world* famous catfish courtbouillon, and my three year old daughter was riding on my shoulders, as she often does. She was wearing a skirt, and when she got up on my shoulders, it rode up as skirts are wont to do, so that she was just bare legs if you looked at her from in front of me. As best I could tell, the skirt still covered her panties, so I didn’t think much of it. To be honest, she’s three, so even if her panties showed, I was sort of unconcerned.

    As I was browsing the produce, I was reaching up absent mindedly and tickling her legs. We call it “horsey gonna eat his corn” and I make a pretend horsey with my hand, and pretend it’s biting her above the knee, which tickles her and she squirms around and laughs. I was holding her left ankle with my left hand, and reaching up and tickling her leg with my right hand, and a woman told me in no uncertain terms that if I didn’t quit “touching” that little girl, that she was going to call the cops.

    I am usually inordinately polite in public, especially in front of my daughter, so I didn’t swear at her or anything else. I just told her that she needed to mind her own business, and that I would tickle my daughter in any way that I damn well saw fit, and that if she didn’t like it, I would be glad to wait for the police to show up if she called them.

    She muttered something about not knowing that she was my daughter, and I laughed. “What the hell do you think she is, some kid I stole from the cereal aisle?” Her facial expression indicated that this is EXACTLY what she had assumed. I shook my head and went back to the produce. I couldn’t believe it. I think she was going to press the issue, but my daughter saved the day by trying to get my attention, and in the process, called me “Daddy.” I think she was asking to be tickled again, but I don’t remember. The lady let it be at that point.

    But I just can’t imagine how diseased a person’s mind has to be to see a father enjoying a shopping trip with his daughter, and immediately assume something sexual is going on and confront him. Because no father ever tickles his daughter without there being something sexual about it, right?

    *By “world famous” I mean “my family really likes it”


  152. Jason Wexler August 15, 2014 at 15:52 #

    I wasn’t aware there was a name for this phenomenon, I would assume if someone knew it had a name that they would know it was not unheard of. I’ve been pulled over three times when my niece who is hispanic was in the car with one of her many blond friends whose parents do trust me, but never had a problem with just my niece. I’ve also been harassed by a cop when we are at McDonald’s and the other parent was in the bathroom. Boy did she let that cop have it. The guys in my gay dad’s group tell me I should put a pride sticker on my car or camp it up if I get pulled over again, they’ve never had the problem of being pulled over. I’m not ashamed to be gay, but I’m uncomfortable playing into stereotypes, when the other people are wrong. I’m increasingly unwilling to tak the kids out in public without other patents usually mom’s.


  153. That_Susan August 15, 2014 at 16:10 #

    Yes, this is a very diseased way to look at fathers and daughters. Also, the sexualization of children is a very prevalent thing. I had someone get on to me at the park when one of my own daughters was small, and I hadn’t thought to put shorts on her under her dress and she naturally wasn’t all that concerned about people seeing her panties — and actually it was the same teen girl who’d been upset about the man and little girl walking together who expressed her feeling of being “grossed out” when my daughter’s dress went up.

    I commented that she didn’t seem all that concerned that her little brother’s pants kept falling down, and she said something about him needing to dress like that because he was a boy.

    While we’re on this topic, what do you guys think, if you’ve been exposed to it, about the conservative Christian idea that girls and women are responsible for men “committing adultery in their hearts?” I hear about all these Christian men being plagued with lust and blaming women for their ability to keep their minds pure, whereas more secular men seem able to get on with their lives okay, regardless of what women are wearing.

    I guess I’ve never gotten all the distress over what someone else is wearing. I can see a good looking, muscular guy jogging shirtless and appreciate that he’s attractive, without my day being totally wrecked. And even the women people brand as slutty dressers aren’t literally peeling their shirts off in the same manner as guys do while out jogging or playing basketball on a hot day.


  154. Spaniard August 15, 2014 at 20:02 #

    I like very much how harsh you are. 🙂


  155. JShaft August 15, 2014 at 22:55 #

    Yeah, that’s the downside to religion, it’s a job lot. With some simple nice rules and conventions for how to behave, you also get some random and unquestionable bronze-age social norms. When being kind do your neighbor is on a par with stoning people for, well, any reason to be honest, then I have to think that it was worth the loss of some social cohesion..


  156. JShaft August 15, 2014 at 23:01 #

    Thankfully, where I live, I’ve not come across a lot of that. The only time I though I was being looked at funny while taking my kid to the playground was when I went with a guy from a charity who was helping me with parenting stuff (or, as it turns out, helping me with confidence, as apparently I’m not doing it wrong :p). Got a few looks from people, but to be honest, the majority of them were of the kind that seemed… Pleasantly surprised that we were so comfortable being a couple with a child in public :p

    In the end, so long as it doesn’t move on to police being called, I’m not too fussed. I’ve had enough experience both misreading people’s expressions and having mine misread to judge what others are thinking….


  157. JShaft August 15, 2014 at 23:07 #

    I never came across the kiddie-fiddler accusations, but he was virulently racist against black people…

    However, I hate this Black/White view of people that seems to be the norm nowadays. When society views people in a way you had to train yourself not to, and you had to do that to stop being insane, well…


  158. JShaft August 15, 2014 at 23:28 #

    Yeah, that blows. This strange perception (one that’s thoroughly encouraged by Feminism) that only one half of society needs to be watched in case of sex crimes, coupled with the laughable notion that women automatically make better parents… This is where it leads, and it’s a very sad thing indeed. Worse still for not conforming with reality…

    When I was in the therapy I was in for the crazy, I got to meet a lot of women who were mentally ill in the same way as me (the underdiagnosis of men is a totally separate issue, dealt with here: ), and I heard a grand total of one other patient saying anything particularly horrible or incriminating about their Dad. Me, I source the parental aspects of my illness to both parents, but it was certainly eye-opening to be in a room with eight or so people, and most of them had been psychologically and emotionally abused to the point of frequent suicide attempts, by their own mothers.

    Humans are humans. The moment we create dogma about one group being somehow less prone to humanity, the less we as a society can do to clean up the mess. Me, I haven’t talked to either of my parents in over a decade. If I tell people I haven’t talked to my Dad in that long or more, and I don’t want to, they nod and drop the subject. When I say the same thing about my Mum, they almost universally chime in with “Why not?” or “But she’s your Mum!” or, my personal favorite: “What did you do?”…

    Seriously, one day, when I’m finally strong enough to write my autobiography (when other parental abuse victims insist you write your autobiography, you sort of have to listen), there’ll be one chapter on what my Dad did to me, and yes, it’ll be a pretty intense and hard-to-read chapter. I’m at a loss to imagine I won’t need a separate volume to encompass my Mum’s abuses…

    So yeah, it’s sort of extra-offensive to me to hear someone questioning what I did wrong to lead to the breakdown in my relationship with my Mum. It also doesn’t help that I’ve had to learn the lesson all who get abused learn sooner or later: No-one wants to hear about it. So, I end up stuck, unable to reply to this nonsensical perception.

    Nowadays, I just say “Don’t ask” when people ask about my “Family”… Still, I’ve got an actual family now, so no-one start hugging me, okay? :p


  159. MC August 15, 2014 at 23:31 #

    Yes, I should have mentioned he starts the Ghandi video 8 minute and 30 seconds in.

    But yeah, Ghandi was racist, participated in killing blacks, viewed Indians as part of the Aryan race, and thought of black people as slightly above the untouchables who are the lowest in the Indian caste system and pretty much treated as slaves.

    He also had a lot of weird sexual stuff he did with girls to test their purity and his own will power. Like sleep in the bed naked together to test his will power. I think it was mentioned he did that with a 15 year old girl at the age of 77, so kinda a creepy guy.

    He supported the caste system, actively fighting to keep it in place.

    And it was not really much of what Ghandi did, but the war the British just went through that made holding India as a colony too expensive to keep up, so they let it go, like they had to do with all their empire.

    The British were also a lot better rulers than the previous rulers India had. The previous rulers in India were far more brutal and cruel than the British.

    The British even made illegal the burning of widows, and female infanticide. So one could argue the British in India was an improvement.

    There was more in the video, but I can’t remember it all.


  160. JShaft August 15, 2014 at 23:44 #

    I’m sort of balanced to the point of near ambivalence on this topic. Arguments for both sides make just enough sense not to be easily discounted, and I see aspects of reality in both.

    Honestly, the only position I can hold on this one is that no-one has the right to speak for their gender on this one. When Feminists get up men for looking at or commenting on, say, cleavage, and/or yell things about how “No woman wants to be sexually harassed like that” they are denying reality. There are women I know for whom it would take a serious concerted effort from Quasimodo to get them to feel a little bit squick. There are women who’ll yell at you on public transport because you looked in their direction twice in half an hour. There are guys who’ll shag anything that moves, and there’s guys who wish all the gendered sex-crime laws were reversed, so they can charge all these icky stalker women who think it’s okay to touch men in public without prompting.

    In all honesty, no side has ever convinced me of it’s own representative nature. I’ve been a very promiscuous person in my life, as a man, without ever getting very good at this whole “picking up” thing, because girls were allowed to hit on me in ways my Feminist mother taught me would have been crimes against humanity, had I done them. Yet, I was grateful, and wen I eventually developed some means of intentionally expressing sexual interest, it was far from subtle or classy. And it worked.

    I’ve had girls tell me I can’t wear those jeans without getting my arse grabbed, and I’ve appreciated it… Sometimes, and sometimes not. The sad fact is, what’s charming from someone you find attractive is a sex crime from someone less pretty. You may or may not have to google at least one of these names, but put Russel Brand’s personality inside Nick Helm, and, well…

    Also, this leads me to another issue with Feminists: Sex and the City. So many Feminists seem to love that show, it’s frightening. And they defend it vigorously, even though it’s pretty much a show about women who serially objectify men as sex objects and loudly complain if they won’t fuck them, like they’re entitled to men’s genitals or something. It took 2 minutes watching the show to be disgusted by it, knowing the same show with men in it would be banned, or be a comedy pointing at them and laughing, rather than glorifying their struggles. Yet when pushed, the only response I ever get is the stupid “historical” response of “You got to do it for so long, now it’s our turn”… Yeah, keep it classy, ladies :p


  161. Greg Allan August 16, 2014 at 10:01 #

    You mean like the eternal historical “patriarchal oppression” of women that little boys are constantly browbeaten over?


  162. Greg Allan August 16, 2014 at 10:14 #

    “So here’s the end of Feminism finally, so when is alimony going to be abolished? The end of child support, or at the very least the end of jail time if a father loses his job? When are men going to be able to have any say over anything to do with reproduction? Getting reamed in divorce court? False accusations of rape are now even ‘fashionable’ and even when that cute 22 year old at Walgreens winks at me, all I can think of is that she just wants my sperm and a monthly check each month in child support. ”

    Those things will only occur when all men go completely Lysistrata on women. And even that won’t stop false accusations of rape.


  163. That_Susan August 16, 2014 at 11:54 #

    I did have to google Nick Helm, but I already know and love Russell Brand. It’s interesting to hear your perspective on harassment, depending on whether it’s from someone you’re attracted to or not.

    It reminds me of a story I read online once about a teen girl who liked dressing really skimpily, and one time when she was at the pool, she got upset when she felt like an old Grandpa with his grandkids was staring at her, and then when he was taking pictures of his grandkids, she worried that he had gotten some pictures of her. She made a complaint and, if I’m remembering right, I think he had to turn his camera/cell phone over to the police. I wasn’t there so I don’t know the exact situation, but it seems like one more guy just got treated like a criminal for being out in a public place with his loved ones.

    It’s literally unimaginable, to picture the reverse happening and a teen boy complaining that some old Grandma was staring at him and may have taken pictures of him.

    Personally, if I’m comfortable enough with what I’m wearing, including swimwear, to leave the house in it, I’m not going to stress over the possibility that I could end up in someone’s photo. I’ve also never minded receiving a genuine compliment from anyone, and have found it easy to pretty much ignore the really rude stuff. I also suspect that the girl wouldn’t have minded so much about certain other guys staring at her (if that was indeed what Grandpa was doing). It’s kind of like what you said — sometimes you get attention from someone you actually enjoy getting it from, but sometimes others notice you, too.

    My fourteen-year-old daughter, who is totally against the idea of shaming anyone for how they’re dressed, nevertheless does feel uncomfortable with the way a few girls at her school like to dress in clothes like very tight pants and then get right up against guys and twerk. Since they’re certainly not doing it to my daughter, it’s not really my issue, but I know I’d be really pissed off if I had a son in that situation, because maybe the twerking is consensual, but maybe not. I think teen boys are under a lot of pressure to act like they love it whether they actually do or not.


  164. Jason Wexler August 16, 2014 at 14:18 #

    Susan, I think you’re onto something there about the difference between how boys and girls react and it has to do with socialization. Girls are taught by both feminists and conservative religion that it’s bad and wrong for other people to see their body, and law enforcement has been trained to accept their complaints. Boys have a right to complain, but they aren’t encouraged to do so and may end up believing they don’t have the right as a result.

    In defense of the older people who may be looking at skimply dressed young people my anecdote: at my brothers wedding, my sister-in-laws sister went commando while wearing a dress short enough that it barely qualified as a t-shirt. My older relatives who are all grandparents, did notice and did stare but it had more to do with shock and disapproval, than lasciviousness. I think on the issue of slut shaming, the feminists may be wrong, because doesn’t “our” discomfort at seeing her genitals in public have as much validity as whatever the pro slut people are trying to achieve? (That was a general comment, not directed at you Susan)


  165. That_Susan August 16, 2014 at 14:24 #

    Wow! I just skimmed over the synopsis of that play and it’s fascinating — but one question: if men are withholding their sexual favors from women as a means of getting some say as to whether or not their womenfolk head off to war, how would rape accusations hold any water, especially in this day and age of DNA testing?


  166. Jason Wexler August 16, 2014 at 14:48 #

    WordPress tells me my response got lost in thaether, so if I double post this I’m sorry.

    “You raped me… three years ago”, “I withdrawl consent from all the sex we’ve ever had, therefore rape”, “You did something that made me feel uncomfortable or threatened, therefore rape”.

    I’m a huge fan of the play Lysistrata, but I’m not sure men can really effect change by the same means (not that the play was realistic then or now) and withholding sex wouldn’t be effective, perhaps as Janet has previously written,  going on general strike and shutting down modern society would work.  With regards to the rape accusations above, one of the MRM’s complaints is expanded definitions of rape which make it impossible to interact with women in any capacity without threat of a false rape accusation. 

    Additionally DNA isn’t much help if the accusation is made months or years later, and has no way of demonstrating consent at the time. Anyway, asking a women to submit to medical forensic testing to prove her claims is dehumanizing, traumatic and another form of rape, can’t you just accept her claims and incarcerate the bastard, you evil rape appologist?


  167. That_Susan August 16, 2014 at 14:54 #

    Well, with the example you described where the girl was literally showing her genitals, rather than open shaming, I think she could be quietly asked to leave and even escorted out, as would happen with any boy or man who was intentionally exposing himself. With an adult, it wouldn’t be out of line to involve the police. With children, I think the parents need to be made aware of the exposure. I guess some people would see this as shaming of the male or female who’s behaving inappropriately, but I see this as more a matter of protecting everyone’s safety and wellbeing.

    But with clothing choices that are less extreme than literally exposing one’s genitals, I think a mature person should just be able to look the other way if someone’s dressing in a way that makes them uncomfortable. For example, some people feel squeamish about seeing a mom breastfeeding her baby in a public place. While they have a right to feel that way, and even to get up and change seats in a waiting room if they don’t want to sit near a breastfeeding mom — I had that happen to me once in the waiting room of a doctor’s office, and while it didn’t make me feel great, I didn’t accuse that person of harassment, either, because people have the right not to sit next to me if they want — they don’t have the right to expect the breastfeeding mom to move, or to go nurse her baby in the toilet or some such nonsense.

    It’s actually fairly recently that it hit me just HOW MUCH of the female body is perceived as sexual or a sexual organ as compared to the male body. No one thinks anything of it if you feel hot playing sports or driving your truck and want to peel your shirt off — and it’s very refreshing to hear about some laws being enacted in places like Canada, wherein it’s no longer seen as indecent exposure for women to go shirtless in the same kinds of places where it’s always been okay for a man to do so. While I’m too old to ever feel comfortable getting on board with it myself, I think that if it becomes more of a norm with younger women, it may make life a lot easier for breastfeeding moms in the future. I’ve heard that in Germany, where topless swimming is the norm for women, men are used to seeing it and don’t go bonkers in the same way that many U.S. men do.


  168. That_Susan August 16, 2014 at 15:03 #

    I realize we’re all from different countries — but I think that in the U.S., it would be very hard to prove a rape accusation three years after the fact, unless perhaps the women had saved the garment she was wearing that had some of the mean’s DNA on it. Most rape accusations don’t make it that far here, but it’s still really awful for anyone to have to deal with a false accusation.


  169. Jason Wexler August 16, 2014 at 15:34 #

    I’m also from the U.S. I did probably make a semantic error, by saying accusation when I should have used allegation, anyone can level an allegation, but accusation means law enforcement is involved, and of course arrest or trial doesn’t necessarily follow either. One of the reasons feminism is under attack in the U.S. right now is because they are pushing to expand rape definitions to include unprovable allegations Iike I listed, and to modify rules of evidence and due process, so that unsubstantiated allegations are all that’s needed to prosecute and convict. Right now a percentage of real, dangerous rapists get off, because it can take weeks or months for their victim to know they were assaulted, and by then toxicity tests won’t show the presence of drugs used to coerce consent, short of requiring all people to take biweekly drug screenings (which is super expensive and problematic for other reasons, civil liberties anyone) we have no plausible way of combating the difficulties of prosecuting rapists when their victims often can’t or don’t report the crime or its possibility until after there is no forensic evidence. I’m not as extreme as some MRM’s, I accept that part of these expanded rape laws is an attempt to catch real, bad guys. However, it’s hard for me to understand how these expansions help when they are more likely to encourage false or absurd rape accusations.


  170. Jason Wexler August 16, 2014 at 15:49 #

    It’s actually fairly recently that it hit me just HOW MUCH of the female body is perceived as sexual or a sexual organ as compared to the male body.

    Perhaps it’s a result of being the same sex as the people I “objectify” but I can find just as many erotically appealing body parts on a man as you probably found on women. Within the normative heterosexual community maybe the difference is men aren’t thinking of themselves as sexually appealing, while women are taught to deny their arousal particularly if it’s superficial and appearance based.


  171. That_Susan August 16, 2014 at 16:07 #

    “Perhaps it’s a result of being the same sex as the people I “objectify” but I can find just as many erotically appealing body parts on a man as you probably found on women.”

    That’s interesting! So on a hot day at the park, would you say you’re just as likely to go shirtless as a heterosexual guy?


  172. Jason Wexler August 16, 2014 at 16:37 #

    I’m a poor sample to ask that of in the first place. I’m not likely to be outside in the first place, and if I am it’s with numerous children, so there are appropriateness issues there. In my estimate though gay men may be more likely to take their shirt off, if only to attract a “mate”. On the other hand gay men who are fat are probably more self conscious then comparable straight guys… so I guess I would have to go do research to find out.


  173. That_Susan August 16, 2014 at 17:07 #

    Well, I am definitely opposed to doing away with our “innocent until proven guilty” policy for any and all crimes. And as I’ve already mentioned, I’m also opposed to having a sex offender registry, unless the information were only available to police so they could track repeat offenders; it serves no purpose to make the information available to the general public and just opens the door for bullies and thugs to feel like they can abuse ex-offenders and their families while being “of service to society.”

    I’ll have to look into this more to see which feminist organizations are trying to make it so easy to convict people of crimes without proof.


  174. Jason Wexler August 16, 2014 at 17:18 #

    You’re a thoughtful reasonable person, so I wouldn’t expect anything less of you.


  175. JShaft August 16, 2014 at 23:14 #

    Yeah, it still gets to me that groupies get “raped” because of the power imbalance between famous men and eager young girls, but buys are meant to be ruled by their groin, and that’s why songs like “Hot for teacher” aren’t seen as creepy as hell…

    So, it’s fascinating to me that Feminism seems to be such a big player in reinforcing the “Boys are controlled by their genitals, and they love it” paradigm, along with the “Girls can’t control their genitals, and that’s boys fault because otherwise they’d be pure and innocent” thing. Both are just too one-sided to be close to reality, but hilariously contradictory as well. How about “Humans are sometimes totally rational about what to do with their bits, and sometimes they get carried away with their lovejunk, and do things they may later regret.”

    Quite frankly, a lot of the problems I see come from intentionally gendering human behavior.


  176. JShaft August 16, 2014 at 23:21 #

    Heh, I think I have a solution to a lot of problems, including annoying radfems, annoying MGTOW’s, and my days being filled with boredom: Get all the extremists who can’t see how irrational their emotions have made them, and put them all in a really big pit, and always throw in enough food for one less than the current number of survivors.

    Sorry, I just assumed that because you guys are allowed to say patently ridiculous, extreme and unhelpful shit based purely on your feelings, that, well, I could to…


  177. JShaft August 16, 2014 at 23:35 #

    Hey, that can bring us right back to the topic, or at least the ballpark…

    As an atheist and sceptic, I have way, way more of a problem with Rebecca Watson than I do with, say, the little Korean church down the block from me. As far as I’m aware, only one of the two is personally responsible for witch-hunts…

    There’s a great argument to be made in regards to Feminism, religion and any other set of beliefs, in that while they can lead good people to do bad things, they don’t always do so. For someone who spent so long convinced of Humanity’s inherent evil, I’ve come to realise most people just want to be nice and do good.

    The only problem with these beliefs is that, in some cases, they allow people who are intent on hurting people and causing harm to believe that their actions are actually noble and pure. A quick look at Westboro Baptist Church or the Taliban or Tumblr Radfems will confirm this. People with hate on their faces, hate in their voices, rage in their bearing and pure joy expressed when they elicit pain form their enemies. And a thin veneer of belief keeps them insulated from the reality of their actions.

    Not that I don;t see people in this movement that exhibit the same qualities. I think the most ethical thing to do when trying to change the world and fight evil is to constantly and courageously check ones self. Me, I know I tend to enjoy talking down to those who are clearly (in my view) personality disordered by way of trauma, but that’s because, as one recovering from same, they make me look bad. Plus, dissecting their irrational ramblings sharpens my skill at dealing with my own irrational ramblings. Still, I don’t go around suggesting it’s a good thing I’m doing. It’s probably quite mean and selfish, but it serves my ends whilst making it easier to cope with being confronted by decades of having sounded like people I now can’t stand…

    Still, better to be honest about one’s failings than to try to disguise them as somehow noble, eh?


  178. JShaft August 16, 2014 at 23:40 #

    You missed the part where it doesn’t matter if you win or not, you’re that guy who was either convicted of rape, or the guy who “Got away with rape”.

    On the other hand, the “Threat of a false rape accusation” just because they’re a woman holds little more validity than the “Treat of being raped” just because they’re a man. The only difference is that in one case, either sex is just as unlikely to rape you, but only one sex gets away with crying rape…


  179. JShaft August 16, 2014 at 23:44 #

    I dunno, I tried to be gay for years, and I still have issues with guys with gym bodies and waxed torsos dancing shirtless or with their shirt off. Personally, to me, nipples are nipples. I cover mine, you cover yours, and we can all do what we want with them in aprropriate venues 🙂


  180. fidelbogen August 17, 2014 at 07:24 #

    Yes, it is aggravating to think about this. But the silver lining it gives us, is the knock-em-dead clincher validation of the very thing we have always been pointing out (but to no avail).

    So. . . . I find it oddy comforting. It even makes me feel a mite smug.


  181. fidelbogen August 17, 2014 at 07:51 #

    “You cannot proceed into a fight effectively unless you “know your enemy” and in this case, the “enemy” was second wave feminism, not “women”.

    Explain who actually said that the enemy is “women”, or espoused the standpoint which you are suggesting.

    Prove that you comprehend the ironic significance of the phrase “nawalt” and why this phrase is greeted with cynical hostility.

    (Here’s a hint, Einstein: It’s NOT because they actually think all women are “like that.”)

    In other words, kindly demonstrate that you possess bonafide state-of-the-art political cognizance.

    Or. . . I can only call you “part of the problem”.


  182. JShaft August 17, 2014 at 08:05 #

    I wish I could stay out of this one, but, um…

    You’re getting up a guy on an antifem blog for not getting the deep arcana of how, when you or others say sexist, bigoted and derogatory statements, you’re just joking, and maybe the person criticising you hasn’t enough “political awareness”, thus may actually really be “part of the problem”…

    Fuck, I sure hope you’re satirising feminism right now, because fuck me if you don’t sound like their mob. “Listen to what I want my bigotry to mean, not the bigoted words”, “Educate yourself to your internalised misandry”… Seriously, check your underprivelege…


  183. fidelbogen August 17, 2014 at 17:17 #

    Explain what you are talking about here. Break it down.

    Are you calling somebody sexist or bigoted?


    If so, WHO . . . and for what reason?

    I sure hope you are satirizing feminism right now, because fuck me if you don’t sound like their mob.

    So try again, only this time don’t use rhetorical snake tactics.


  184. fidelbogen August 17, 2014 at 17:27 #

    ” So, in order to play to the base of his support (abused husbands)…”

    Abused husbands are *THE* base of Paul Elam’s support?

    Really? I thought it was a much bigger base than that. .

    Where do you get this information?


  185. JShaft August 17, 2014 at 22:59 #

    Okay, I have no idea what you mean by the judgmental-sounding phrase “Rhetorical snake tactics”, but it certainly gives me reason to doubt we’d get anywhere by talking. Re-read what you said in the first place. I was tearing that a new one, basically.

    How’s this for a lack of evil, satanic, womanly sneakiness? You’re wrong, and wrong in the same ways we all see Feminism being wrong. Nothing you say changes that, but it’ll sure make you look like someone trying to use “snake tactics” to get out of acknowledging that you fucked up. Hard.

    Now go away and think on what you’ve done.


  186. JShaft August 17, 2014 at 23:00 #

    How do you know that advertisements for wrinkle cream are targeted at aging women who are insecure about losing their youthful looks?


  187. malcolmthecynic August 18, 2014 at 06:24 #

    My nitpicking? You responded to my three (technically four) paragraph comment with four sentences. I’m not sure what your deal is, but being dismissive of my comment doesn’t really make any sort of coherent point except to say “I’m going to disagree with you in as dickish a way as possible, while unwittingly pointing out that I didn’t actually understand what you wrote.”

    And yeah, I figured “Yo” was actually meant to be “You”. You made a typo and I responded to what I thought you were trying to say.


  188. JShaft August 18, 2014 at 22:26 #

    Alright, how does this grab you then?

    I disagree not only with nearly every line of your 4 paragraph comment, but I’d go so far as to say I actively dislike almost every word, and even were I to agree with your position, I’d still dislike your comment for its’ tone.

    I also lack the time, inclination and willpower to sift through every single disagreement I have with your statements. I believe that some sets of initial positions make it incredibly difficult for two people to agree, or even reach the point of agreeing to disagree. I believe we’d be beyond that point on this topic were we best friends and really well versed in sorting out our issues, but we’re strangers on the internets.

    TBH, the only reason I spoke up is the same reason I comment on so many things: For evidence. I don’t ever want to be described as “An MRA” because of the amount of things I see written in these spaces, so much of which I disagree with so fundamentally as to cringe upon reading. So, to allow such comments to go unchallenged in some way leads to fear for me. Fear of one day being painted as, well, among far lesser people, you.

    At least I’ll know I’ve provably opened my mouth and said no to things I don;t support or disagree with.

    There. You got motivation and disinclination to rationally discourse on the matter, I’m sure that’s enough for you to leave me alone now?


  189. malcolmthecynic August 19, 2014 at 03:42 #

    Leave you alone? Er, you realize you responded to me originally, right?


  190. JShaft August 19, 2014 at 06:09 #

    Yes, to make several points which were ignored, only to have you respond to a typo like it was some sort of “Gotcha” moment, which was interesting in that, if the typo was interpreted the way you interpreted it mad the sentence, well, not a sentence. Considering you ignore points, and freely choose to assume I’m massively incapable of speaking English AND wrong, rather than thinking for two seconds, assuming I may have a functioning understanding of syntax, and responding appropriately, well, I fail to see the point in continuing to try to discuss pretty much any concept with you.

    It is (and still proves to be) a tiring uphill slog to try to get you to acknowledge simple English rather than either willfully misinterpreting the meaning, completely missing any meaning, or just not understanding English all that well.

    So, for one last nice attempt at getting through the clear dissonance between us, I ask: How precisely does my having replied to you first negate any request for a cessation of conversation?

    Seriously, I’ve said many things to you, with increasing rudeness, abruptness and bluntness, and you’ve not understood a word I’ve said. Granted, I accept the possibility that somehow I’ve failed to adequately communicate concepts to you clearly and concisely, but on re-reading the thread, I honestly can’t be anything other than shocked at your ability to misinterpret every concept I’ve attempted to share. Whether this is willfulness on your part, or some sort of cognitive issue, well, I’m in no position to judge, as I don’t know the inside of your mind. In any case, there comes a point in a conversation where at least one party becomes aware that this isn’t a conversation, or even an argument, but some sort of seemingly automatic gainsaying of another’s position, merely because it doesn’t fit with one’s pet perspective.

    Considering that point was passed, for myself at least, after your first reply, well, I’d like this to end now. If you have a preferred sentence that makes that happen, then, within reason, I’ll happily type that out so you stop talking to me. How’s that sound?


  191. Spaniard August 20, 2014 at 14:12 #

    “All about women is an enygma and it has just one solution: pregnancy”.


    Well, let´s someone else to resolve the “enygma” and pay the bills.

    In any case: that resolution of the “enygma” (crazyness, hysteria…) maybe worked in the XIX Century, cuz nowadays the “enygma”, after children, keeps on growing and growing, and growing…



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