The Pill: beer goggles for women

18 Nov

 

bitch face

 

According to researchers at Florida State University, women who were on the Pill when they met their husbands experienced a changed view of their relationship once they stopped taking it. Once they ditched the daily Permanent Bitch Hormone, women with hot husbands found them really hot, and women with less than hot husbands were pissed.

 

With men whose faces did not conform to objective measures of attractiveness, the women became less satisfied with their relationship when they stopped using oral contraception.

 

What I find really interesting in this study is that when you ask women what makes a relationship satisfying, or what makes it work he needs to be really fucking hot hardly ever makes the list. According to this study, there are 12 key dimensions that impact how happy and fulfilling and long-term a marriage will be:

 

  1. Positive thoughts about your partner
  2. Thinking about your partner when you’re apart
  3. Can’t think about anything else when you are thinking about your partner
  4. Enjoying novel and challenging activities
  5. Spending time together
  6. Expressing affection
  7. Being turned on by your partner
  8. Having sex
  9. Feeling happy
  10. Wanting to know where your partner is at all times
  11. Obsessively thinking about your partner
  12. Having a passion for life

 

Seriously, it reads like a list put together by 13 year old girls drunk on hot chocolate at a sleepover. Looks like I’m in for a rough ride. I’m not really the jealous, insecure, stalkerish type and I generally have no idea where my husband is or what he is doing when he leaves the house, unless he is doing something specific like taking the kids to dance or picking up groceries. He is either at work, at a meeting, at a site, having lunch with friends, having lunch with colleagues, or …. I don’t know. I don’t really care either, and I don’t mean that in a bad way. I care about what he is doing at any specific moment as much as he cares what I am doing. Laundry? Am I at the library? Chatting at the neighbor’s? Who cares?

 

I have very positive thoughts about my husband, but no I don’t think about him obsessively and I can have a generally positive outlook about him and us and our family and our marriage and still manage to have other thoughts in my head, too. I’m pretty sure that is a two way street. I cringe at the thought of obsessive thinking. It doesn’t sound fun at all.

 

6, 7 and 8 seem to be getting closer to the heart of the matter, but they are still very much side-stepping what appears to be an absolutely central component of how happy a woman is with her relationship: being physically attracted is essential.

 

For women.

 

God forbid a man express any unhappiness with his relationship based on his wife’s physical appearance. The shallow, disgusting misogynist pig. Any man that cares about physical attraction clearly hates women and can’t handle normal human diversity! He should be scorned and shunned and it should be illegal to call a woman “fat” or any other disparaging term.

 

Women would never be so shallow as to evaluate an entire relationship based on whether her husband is conventionally attractive. Beauty and the Beast and all that, right? Women love personality and not something as arbitrary and superficial as bone structure.

beauty

Look! Here are 8 Qualities that Define a Great Man

  1. Polite, respectful, considerate and attentive to a woman’s needs
  2. Direct
  3. Faithful
  4. Has integrity
  5. Honest
  6. Mature
  7. Confident
  8. Has a positive attitude

See? Handsome is nowhere on the list! Women do not evaluate men based on their physical assets and they certainly don’t perceive relationships differently based on how good-looking a man happens to be.

 

Except, whoops, they do.

 

The findings suggest hormonal contraceptives can interfere with the way women assess male attractiveness and so how satisfied they are with their partner. While relationships are usually built on a range of traits, the researchers warn that contraceptives can have an unexpected influence on what women look for in a partner.

 

The researchers followed 118 newlywed couples over four years, with the women completing regular surveys on their level of satisfaction with their relationship and their use of contraceptives. The researchers, whose work is published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, also used “trained observers” to rate the men’s facial attractiveness.

 

They found that women who had been using the pill when they met their husbands and later stopped taking the contraceptives saw a change in how they rated their relationship. Those with attractive husbands became more satisfied while those with less attractive husbands became less satisfied.

 

Trained observers to rate men’s attractiveness. Hmmm. That sounds like some interesting training. Sign me up!

 

 

I actually don’t really have any problem with this but I do object to the cultural denial that somehow it is only men who evaluate relationship satisfaction based on their partner’s appearance, and that this somehow proves men are shallow, thoughtless creeps deserving of scorn and mockery. This is particularly true of feminist women. How many times has Jezebel mocked and derided and hated on men who are open about specific physical characteristics they desire in partners? See here, here and here for examples.

 

 

And really, which group is pulling the bait and switch? Men who are open about what they want, or women taking powerful hormones that control their personalities and then blowing up their relationships when they ditch the meds?

 

 

And if artificial hormones designed to suppress women’s reproductive capabilities can have this sort of effect on how they evaluate their satisfaction with long term partners, what other effects are they having? We know that the pill affects women’s abilities to detect male pheromones.

 

 

 

How might that play out in the workplace? In a nightclub? In an elevator when a man asks a woman if she would like to have coffee *cough* Rebecca Watson *cough*.

 

 

Feminists have an overwhelming need to deny differences between men and women (it’s all just socialization!) but when differences are ready and apparent, they are almost always trotted out as proof that men suck. And even when it turns out that women are just as likely to engage in objectification of men, they are at the helm to deny it matters in any way.

 

Male objectification isn’t about making men feel bad. It’s about not caring how men feel.

 

 

So writes Kat Stoeffel unapologetically in New York Mag.

 

 

And that, ladies who call yourselves feminists, is the problem.

 

 

Perhaps a solution to all the feminist insanity is to get those ladies off the Pill? Take off the beer goggles. Join the human race.

 

 

It’s kind of cool, seeing the world with your eyes open.

 

goggles

 

 

Feminists should try it.

 

 

Lots of love,

 

 

JB

 

 

 

56 Responses to “The Pill: beer goggles for women”

  1. boteotu November 18, 2014 at 16:16 #

    Reblogged this on Blogger at the Edge of the Universe..

    Like

  2. javaloco November 18, 2014 at 17:20 #

    Sunshine Mary and Heartiste have written about this effect quite a bit.

    Like

  3. M3 November 18, 2014 at 17:45 #

    Leave this here.. i wrote it a while back. Guess i wasn’t ‘hawwwt’ at the time lol.

    http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/my-wife-went-off-the-pill-our-marriage-died-science/

    Oh well.. today is a new day where i can honestly quote Toby Keith and say:

    Like

  4. The Real Peterman November 18, 2014 at 17:50 #

    Yes but Heartiste is full of excrement.

    Like

  5. slacker November 18, 2014 at 18:14 #

    Wow, I had no idea that the pill could affect women so much. I guess I should just be happy that I have a masculine jawline.

    Like

  6. FuzzieWuzzie November 18, 2014 at 18:38 #

    Elsewhere, someone from Japan pointed out that hormonal birth control wasn’t approved until 2001.To this day, it is not popular. From what she said, it sounds like they pay close attention to the calender.
    Considering how it works, it would not be a surprise if there are many unrecognized side effects.

    Like

  7. Ticklish Quill (@TicklishQuill) November 18, 2014 at 19:30 #

    So Basically, Feminist Studies has just been a massive chemically driven Woozle?

    Well aint that gunna cause a few tears and tantrums.

    Like

  8. Goober November 18, 2014 at 19:56 #

    Wifey used to have sex drive issues. It was disturbing enough that I called bullshit and insisted that she get herself checked out.

    Everything was fine, and she really pushed through it, making sure to be a good wife to me, but I could tell that she “just wasn’t into it” and that sucked. Seriously.

    It was like that for about three or four years.

    Then we decided, in a completely unrelated decision, to have a kid. So she got off the pill, and she became an insatiable catamount in bed. Until she got pregnant with kid #1.

    Apparently, I’m “hot” because she hasn’t decided to leave me post-pill. (Although I’m not really that hot, physically. It’s just my stunning intellect, laser wit, and intoxicating bedside manner that kept her around. Oh, yeah, and my modesty. I’m really modest. It’s really the best part about me, how modest I am… 🙂 )

    But she’s again pregnant now (#2 is due in April), with her hormones now naturally doing to her what the pill mimicked, and guess what?

    Sex drive is in the toilet again.

    A big part of that, I think, is that she feels like shit half the time. I don’t blame her. Being pregnant just LOOKS uncomfortable, I can’t imagine how it actually feels. Unsexy, I’m sure… to say the least…

    But the other part of it is that the hormones of pregnancy, which are the same hormones mimicked by the pill, tank a woman’s sex drive.

    Small price to pay for a son. The last time proved that the drive came back again very shortly after the baby was born.

    And this time, I’m getting snipped, so no more pill for Mrs. Goober. Even if I wasn’t planning to get snipped, we’d figure something else out. She would not be going back on the pill.

    To every woman out there who is taking the pill, and wondering where the fire went, I recommend getting off of it for a bit to see where that takes you. Not getting pregnant isn’t that difficult. There are a lot of options out there.

    Like

  9. That_Susan November 18, 2014 at 19:57 #

    “And really, which group is pulling the bait and switch? Men who are open about what they want, or women taking powerful hormones that control their personalities and then blowing up their relationships when they ditch the meds?”

    Sounds like it’s a good idea to avoid hormonal contraceptives. Glad I did.

    But about men being “open about what they want,” are you talking about the man in the Ask Polly letter? Since there is no male pill, what excuse is there for a man to decide he likes a woman enough to ask her out and then inform her that her breasts are too small, etcetera?

    I mean, it’s not like the girl was young and hot when he met her and then started letting herself go. He started the griping pretty much right after he met her. I can see gently admonishing a partner who’s stopped doing certain things that they used to do to take care of themselves — but if all they’re doing is looking like THEMSELVES — the same person you asked out a week ago — why did you even ask them out in the first place?

    Of course, just as he didn’t have to ask her out, so she didn’t have to keep going out with him.

    That said, women can be just as guilty of marrying a man that they can’t really accept AS IS, because they love the thrill of a human restoration project. As for me, rather than focus on changing my husband or anyone else I love, I’d rather focus on the one person I really CAN decide to change — myself. Rather than focus on whether I feel “in love” every minute of every day, I’d rather just decide to be a loving person whom my husband will hopefully love being with.

    Like

  10. judgybitch November 18, 2014 at 20:01 #

    CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

    Like

  11. That_Susan November 18, 2014 at 22:10 #

    I second that!!!

    Like

  12. girlwithadragonflytattoo November 18, 2014 at 22:31 #

    So interesting! Thanks for writing this!!!

    Like

  13. That_Susan November 18, 2014 at 22:38 #

    I just went back and read Ask Polly’s entire response to the girl with the critical boyfriend, and I think Polly was very wise. She didn’t recommend ditching him since he really was great in other ways, and also because as soon as he realized how he was hurting her, he stopped the criticism.

    He just made the mistake of going 180 degrees in the opposite direction and heaping on the praise, which made his girlfriend feel like he was being insincere and demand the straight truth. At which point he obliged and said a lot more really hurtful stuff about how there were lots of girls more gorgeous than she was.

    It kind of reminds me of when my husband and I were engaged and he suggested that we promise to tell each other if we ever had lustful thoughts about anyone else. I disagreed; I saw no need for that kind of confession when I had no doubt that we’d be faithful to each other. Why did I need to know if he thought my friend had a nicer ass that I did? And why would I hurt him by telling him every time I physically noticed some other guy?

    I’m glad neither of us ended up following the path of ruthless honesty. I’ve heard about wives giving their husbands the third degree about how they compare to other women, or who the husband would rescue first if she and the kids were all helpless in some life-threatening situation. I know I’d save the kids first, so why would I expect or want him to say that he’d do anything different?

    I like Polly’s analogy with Snow White and the magic mirror. It’s the wicked, totally self-absorbed queens who go through life totally wrapped up in how they compare with everyone else, and always needing assurance that they come first. Not the Snow Whites — they’re happily singing and drawing all the little birds and animals to them. The men who want to play the role of the mirror, providing continuous feedback about how their wicked queen stacks up against all the other women in the land — well, hopefully they can break out of the mirror and start doing something interesting with their lives.

    I can’t tell discontented men to quit taking their bitch pills, since there’s no such thing as a male pill, so I guess the guys (at least, the ones who are discounted) will have to figure that one out for themselves, like the powerhouses they are. 🙂

    Like

  14. caprizchka November 18, 2014 at 22:41 #

    I wonder what effect our estrogen-rich food supply is having on everyone’s sex drive.

    Like

  15. That_Susan November 18, 2014 at 22:41 #

    In that last paragraph, in the parentheses, I meant to say, “discontented” — not “discounted.”

    Like

  16. Goober November 18, 2014 at 23:07 #

    No kidding, Susan. On the “full disclosure” thing, I mean.

    Anyone in a relationship that is healthy must be confident enough to understand that their partner is going to run into and interact with people on a daily basis that are factors of ten hotter than they are.

    One of the guys my wife works with is apparently a real heart-throb. The girls in the office swoon every time he comes around.

    My wife, I know, thinks he’s hot, too. But when she talks about him, it’s always from the perspective of her other co-workers. “Liz thinks he’s hot,” or “Faith was breaking out in cold sweats the whole time he was in her office.”

    Am I foolish enough to think my wife doesn’t do the same? No.

    Am I insecure enough to care if she does? No.

    Do I really want her to tell me about it all the time? Fuck no.

    Who wants to hear their spouse talk about how much hotter so and so is than they are all the time?

    I don’t know if I’ve ever mentioned anything about another woman being hot, except maybe for celebrities, the entire time Mrs. Goober and I have been together. It’s just not nice. I married her. She works out, takes care of herself, and is a beautiful woman, and she does that in part for me. Why the hell would i thank her for that by pointing out all the other people around her that look better than she does?

    Like

  17. Goober November 18, 2014 at 23:07 #

    Out of curiosity, what, other than soy, is estrogen rich in our food supply?

    Like

  18. Goober November 18, 2014 at 23:13 #

    Thanks, ladies.

    Like

  19. FuzzieWuzzie November 19, 2014 at 00:57 #

    M3, it makes me sad that it went down that way. Marriage is serious and those with weak commitments shouldn’t enter into it. While you were there to put it on the line…
    Springboard for a post, anyone?

    Like

  20. Paul Murray November 19, 2014 at 02:23 #

    Another take-away from this article is something that PUAs have frequently noted: never take dating advice from women. Women, in general, are in denial about what they find attractive. If you ask them what’s attractive, they tell you what they think they *should* find attractive, not what they actually do.

    Like

  21. caprizchka November 19, 2014 at 02:55 #

    I do private nutritional consultations. However, there is plenty of information out there and if you’re genuinely curious, you’ll have no trouble finding it.

    Like

  22. Jennifer November 19, 2014 at 03:55 #

    The hotness factor when it came to dating and then marriage was important to me for one reason–a guy can be funny, smart, sweet, blah, blah, blah, but I don’t want to spend the next however many yrs of my life having sex or making out with or looking across the dinner table at someone I feel is ugly. Those guys are for friendship and nothing more. Luckily I think my husband is very handsome and all those other good things on the list and we have been married for over 20 yrs. Saying looks don’t matter is like saying money doesn’t matter–it sounds nice but it’s so very wrong.

    Like

  23. Spaniard November 19, 2014 at 09:00 #

    My galfriend is on the pill (she says so) and she is very horny. She does not know I have a vasectomy, so if she is liying to me she won´t get her presumable achievement: to get my wallet via child support.
    She is an Slavic nurse and everybody who has read Milan Kundera books knows that Slavic nurses are nimphomaniac. So, I let her be. I am a kind of father figure to her. This is very recomendable for men in their 40s or 50s childfree: to have a girlfriend or wifey in her 20s gives a kind of fulfilled paternal instinct.

    Like

  24. Spaniard November 19, 2014 at 09:05 #

    Congrats for the baby, dear Goober.

    Let me tell you that in this country wifeys stop having sex at all after giving birth. Nothing at all. That is my married friends tell me.
    Bunch of frigids…

    Like

  25. Spaniard November 19, 2014 at 09:24 #

    Erratum :

    “…her presumable GOAL”

    Like

  26. Jason Wexler November 19, 2014 at 14:16 #

    Regarding the list of 12 characteristics of a good relationship, aren’t items 2, 3 , 10 and 11 essentially the same thing, with item 1 being barely different? I’m not going to spend a lot of time on this I though JB’ s takedown calling it juvenile and stalkerish was perfect.

    Like

  27. That_Susan November 19, 2014 at 14:29 #

    M3, I’m very, very sorry about what happened with your wife — but having read your story, I’d like to point out another possible reason why your wife might have gotten turned off. Telling a 34-year-old woman that now is not the time to try for a baby, and that you’re simply not willing to do whatever it takes to support a family in a tough economy — well, that would turn many women off more than whatever hormonal changes they were dealing with while coming off the pill.

    Yeah, it may not be your fault that she waited till she was past 30 to get married and then got “baby rabies” — I understand that’s not really your problem because men don’t have the same biological clock (except that some men DO decide that they’d rather not start a family past a certain age because they want to really be able to be there for any children they bring into the world) — well, as I said, her getting “past her prime” was not “your” problem — except that your spouse’s problems kind of do become your problems when you decide to marry them.

    Of course, I don’t know you or your ex-wife — I’m just going by what you yourself wrote about the situation. Just going by what you wrote, it seems like you each got totally wrapped up in your own fears and insecurities and had a hard time empathizing with one another. She was so wrapped up in wanting to try for a baby that she kind of ignored your financial worries, and you were so wrapped up in financial worries that you felt like she was being quite insensitive and self-centered to be thinking about getting pregnant right then.

    One thing to consider if this comes up in a future marriage is that many children were born into tough financial situations and still managed to have happy childhoods and happy lives because of all the love they had in their homes, and because of their parents’ willingness to work together and survive hardship with a positive attitude. Another thing to consider is that when you postpone having a baby until the time is right, there’s absolutely no guarantee that you can still have a baby. So it seems to me that you’re risking more by postponing the baby than are by having the baby in a sucky economy.

    Like

  28. Jason Wexler November 19, 2014 at 14:33 #

    That’s an interesting point, and essentially the reason I recently stopped watching the only tv show I was watching. The primary romantic couple were clearly wrong for each other, he was interested in her because she was smoking hot (therefore honest, until he starts pretending there is more depth or value to her than there is), she finally agreed to date him out of guilt because he was everything she said she wanted in a man (but none of the things she really wants but can’t admit to because it’s not socially acceptable), and he had been financially supporting her for years, while she dated other guys. My real problem with the premise of that relationship is that the writers chose to openly run with it, rather then show the two of them coming together to common ground and mutual respect… I was done when I heard her yell at him “your blind infatuation with me is the foundation our relationship is built on, you can’t have doubts about us getting married”.

    Like

  29. Goober November 19, 2014 at 18:09 #

    I agree with you 100%. But it cuts both ways, and feminists can’t stand that. THey want to be able to dictate to men what men are allowed to find attractive and not (fat-shaming, and so forth).

    So a woman who won’t go out with an ugly man is a strong, empowered woman who is expressing her desires in a mate.

    A man who won’t go out with an ugly woman is a shallow, hateful misogynist who needs to be “re-educated”.

    Like

  30. slacker November 19, 2014 at 20:10 #

    Yikes, I like you Susan but the way that you’re willing to jump to the defense of woman you’ve never met and try to rationalize her actions scares me. I don’t care if she wanted a child or not she made a commitment when she accepted his proposal and the fact that she was willing to throw away that commitment the second it became inconvenient to her makes her a crappy person.

    The manosphere or whatever you call it is full of guys who are struggling not to think of woman being cold and calculating when it comes to relationships. What you wrote isn’t exactly encouraging.

    Like

  31. That_Susan November 19, 2014 at 23:17 #

    I don’t even know the woman involved — or the man, for that matter. It just struck me that it didn’t seem to occur to him that there might have been other factors at play than simply her losing her attraction for him after going off the pill.

    But here you are — probably not knowing the two of them any better than I do, but automatically assuming that she’s a crappy person. I do understand that in feminist-world, a person’s story is usually supposed to be accepted as 100% accurate and not criticized or questioned in any way — but I didn’t realize that this was the rule here. And I wasn’t even doubting that the author was telling the truth about his perspective, or calling him a crappy person — I was simply suggesting that his wife’s perspective might have been entirely different than what he was assuming.

    What if I were divorced and came here and shared my perspective about my divorce, and some of the men here saw things from an angle that I hadn’t considered? Is it possible that some of you might want to (very kindly and gently) give me some food for thought in case it could help me in a future relationship? I mean, I realize the most hardcore manosphere guys would see no point in trying to help me, as I’m already well “past my prime” anyway — but they still might (kindly and gently) critique my story as a means of helping any younger female readers from making the same mistakes.

    In the case of this author — men’s market value increases with age, so it’s literally never to late for a guy to learn something new and improve his future relationships, right?

    Like

  32. slacker November 20, 2014 at 02:10 #

    “Telling a 34-year-old woman that now is not the time to try for a baby, and that you’re simply not willing to do whatever it takes to support a family in a tough economy — well, that would turn many women off more than whatever hormonal changes they were dealing with while coming off the pill.”

    I really don’t know how a man is supposed to interpret that to mean anything other than “I didn’t actually marry you because I love and wan to to live with you but because I thought you would give me a child and be a good provider but since you haven’t I’m justified in leaving you.”

    Maybe I’m naive for believing M3 at face value or for believing that people marry because they love each other but I’m sick of people making excuses for crappy behavior and making marriage even more of a joke than it has already become.That’s what I felt like you were doing. Is it fair or even logical for me to accuse you of doing that? I don’t know (probably not) but hopefully you can see why I’m upset because erroneously or not I felt like you were saying a woman is justified in leaving a man that she supposedly loves and agreed to spend THE REST OF HER LIFE with because her biological clock is winding down but hubby doesn’t want or cant provide for a child.

    Like

  33. Ooana November 20, 2014 at 04:15 #

    I’ve been meaning to thank you for sometime. Especially recently…thank you for helping me remember that I’m not alone in speaking up for the equality we were born with and against the equality used as a hatchet.

    If you ever need a hand or a supportive word, reach out.

    If you know of more likeminded sites out there please let us know?

    Like

  34. Ooana November 20, 2014 at 04:29 #

    I’ve read studies on this before and it’s fascinating. In the UK it was proven that at a certain hormone level women would find genetically less than comparable men attractive (scent of swet on a shift) and the more genetically favorable man when off. It certainly has a lot of effects.

    That said it was also shown that with low hormone pills this didn’t occur. In many ways the benefits outwayed any variation (lower rate of ovarian cancer for example.) The problem is, that until the pill is over the counter- it’s difficult for women to shop around. In fact I find it very strange how rarely I hear anything other then the tri-cycle brands -which my gyno has always said gets the most complaints.

    So…Obamacare…how about women pay for our birth control but over the counter and with some guidance by but not at the whimsy of your definition health care?”

    Side note…due to the cost prohibitive climate the pill I was on since 16, Desogen, is no longer available in the US. Europe it is. The alternative, Apri…well…I’ll be shopping.

    I didn’t get to keep my health insurance or my birth control. Lol. I’m not surprised.

    Ladies…ask your doc about low hormone options. It’s great once you find your fit.

    Like

  35. Ooana November 20, 2014 at 04:30 #

    S/B *compatable* not comparable.

    Like

  36. RS November 20, 2014 at 06:13 #

    I had no idea the pill had such an effect, but it makes sense. Thank goodness my husband is hot. :). I kid, but after 10+ years off the pill I do find him hotter than ever.

    Like

  37. Robert Brockway November 20, 2014 at 11:44 #

    Thanks for writing on this research Janet. Some interesting implications here.

    Is the high divorce rate after a few years of marriage (largely initiated by women) impacted by women going off the pill?

    Once Vasalgel is on the shelves many women will go off the pill. Perhaps we’ll see a brief jump in divorces followed by a decline in the divorce rate. Maybe.

    Like

  38. That_Susan November 20, 2014 at 11:53 #

    If she left him because he was really trying to find a job but couldn’t — then that would certainly be crappy behavior. However, from what he said, it seemed like he was saying that he wasn’t willing to take whatever kind of job he could find just so they could squeeze out a baby before her biological clock stopped ticking.

    Yes, people should marry for love, and no one ever has any guarantee that they’ll be able to have a baby. But if one person really wants to have one and the other doesn’t — well, on the one hand, no one should be pressured to become a parent against their will, but on the other hand, it’s really not unreasonable for someone who realizes they DO want a baby, and time is running out, to want a chance to marry someone else who wants the same thing.

    Maybe this is a real case for a no-fault divorce: each spouse wants different things (maybe they started out with the same goals, but one person changed drastically), and neither goal is wrong, really, and there are no kids involved, so why not just free one another to find happiness with a more compatible partner? Again, I’m not saying he was wrong for not wanting a baby right then — but she wasn’t necessarily wrong for wanting one, either.

    Like

  39. slacker November 20, 2014 at 17:53 #

    Ok, but don’t you think that unloading your spouse that is still in love with you just because you want a child but they don’t, is kinda selfish?

    Why are your desires any more important than theirs?

    Like

  40. That_Susan November 20, 2014 at 18:30 #

    “Why are your desires any more important than theirs?”

    They’re not. Her desires were no more important than his, and vice-versa. They just wanted completely different things. I can’t say what the absolute right thing would be to do in such a situation, but it seems to me that each person might be happier with someone who wanted the same things. There’s a huge difference between no kids and one or more kids.

    Like

  41. Rebecca November 21, 2014 at 04:29 #

    I appreciate the balanced perspective that you bring. It seems the first problem was that the couple did not take the time to get to know each other before getting married. I imagine this is the most common cause of divorce.

    Like

  42. That_Susan November 21, 2014 at 11:56 #

    I agree!

    Like

  43. bookooball November 22, 2014 at 04:44 #

    Why do you say that? Some truths are uncomfortable but that doesn’t change the facts.

    “[CH: “alpha” isn’t a moral designation. alpha is amoral. alphas can be great men or twisted psychos. how many times have i had to explain this now?]”

    Like

  44. bookooball November 22, 2014 at 04:48 #

    “Why are your desires any more important than theirs?”

    It’s not about who’s desires being more important. It’s about wanting the same things. If you still love her but she doesn’t feel the same way, it would be selfish to think she’s wrong for leaving. This goes both ways.

    Like

  45. That_Susan November 22, 2014 at 15:19 #

    Very well said.

    Like

  46. slacker November 22, 2014 at 16:49 #

    According to other articles on M3’s site they knew each other for years before they got married.

    I realize that if there was ever a deal breaker in a marriage it would be a disagreement over children but I honestly feel like there isn’t a single marriage or relationship scenario where people won’t immediately try to run damage control for the women involved and I’m sick of it.

    Like

  47. That_Susan November 22, 2014 at 18:24 #

    I’m not trying to run damage control for anyone here. I’d feel the same way if it were the man wanting to have kids while they were still able to do so, and the woman wanting to put things off.

    And again, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with someone saying, as this guy seemed to be saying, that he didn’t want a child badly enough to run the risk of having to do work that he wasn’t crazy about in order to support that child. When I said it was a “turnoff,” I meant that in the context of being married to someone who wanted kids — not in the context of being married to someone who felt the same way as he did.

    Ideally, people have in-depth conversations about important topics like this before marriage — and ideally, they don’t change their minds after marriage.

    However, if they make the mistake of getting married without realizing what a make-or-break issue this was, or if one person later realizes that they DO want kids even though they previously didn’t, it seems to me that freeing one another to find happiness with someone else could actually be a form of damage-control. It’s certainly less damaging to divorce before having kids together — though of course I’m not saying that it’s painless even without kids.

    Like

  48. slacker November 22, 2014 at 19:15 #

    Without getting into his opinions on women which are really no different than other PUAs he’s doesn’t exactly have the healthiest attitude towards black or gay people.

    Like

  49. slacker November 22, 2014 at 22:16 #

    “it seems to me that freeing one another to find happiness with someone else could actually be a form of damage-control.”

    Don’t you think that view is a little optimistic? If one spouse still cares for the other and wants to try and stay together despite the disagreement I really don’t think their going to be happy about splitting up, at least not any time soon. I know you said it wouldn’t be a painless process and I totally agree that getting divorced before there are children in the picture is better but it all just feels so cold hearted to me. like treating your spouse like an ISP who’s service no longer meets your approval and not a human being with emotions. I get that childless women in their thirties have to make to make tough decisions and fast but it again it just seems really brutal to me.

    Maybe I’m over sympathizing with M3 but if you dig around his blog (assuming you can stomach PUA sites) you’ll see that he brings up his failed marriage all the time even on articles that have nothing to do with marriage, to me it clear that he is still hurt about how it all ended. I don’t think people have the right to proclaim innocence or to simply to claim “It didn’t work out” when their spouse ends up being an emotional wreck.

    Like

  50. That_Susan November 23, 2014 at 15:28 #

    I think there’s probably an element of brutality in all divorce — but how do you think she’d feel if she’d waited till he was ready to try for a baby and it ended up being too late for her? How would that affect their lives? I understand that they’d have no way of knowing whether she definitely could have conceived at 34, but a 34-year-old usually has a much better chance than a 40-year-old, and even a couple of years can make a big difference for a woman in her 30’s. I don’t think he mentioned whether he gave her any kind of a time frame, after which he’d be willing to try for the baby even if the economy still hadn’t bounced back.

    Plus, just from what he said in the one post, it sounded like maybe he was one of those people who cared more about being able to hold out for the kind of job he really wanted than about finding a job — nothing wrong with that, of course, when you don’t have kids. But if they’d had a baby and he’d felt forced into a job he didn’t want because he had to work and couldn’t just hold out for a terrific job offer, that wouldn’t have been great for the marriage, either

    Either way, it seems like staying together would have been more painful for them in the long run. But of course I don’t know them and am just going by what he said about it.

    Like

  51. slacker November 23, 2014 at 19:08 #

    Ok I can see that, I might not agree with everything you say but that makes sense. Anyway, I’m sure you’re sick of dealing with me by now so I’ll stop pestering you.

    Like

  52. That_Susan November 23, 2014 at 21:17 #

    I’m not Rebecca, but I never felt like you were pestering anyone. 🙂

    Like

  53. slacker November 23, 2014 at 23:08 #

    I know you’re not Rebecca, word press wouldn’t let me reply directly to you for some reason.

    Like

  54. That_Susan November 24, 2014 at 03:28 #

    No problem. 🙂

    Like

  55. Taylor December 11, 2014 at 03:21 #

    That’s interesting and all, but how so you suggest they avoid unwanted pregnancy if your goal is to get them off the pill? You know that’s the only appropriate form of contraception for some people, right?

    Like

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